5 ms·

How is this getting a free pass, while allegations about other countries prompt much consternation. I think it is ethically problematic to assist/work for any

How is this getting a free pass, while allegations about other countries prompt much consternation. I think it is ethically problematic to assist/work for any espionage/intelligence related work during peace time.

corrupt_measure 6y ago
Because many of us come from the US and Germany and are what many consider the "good guys". Even if we don't come from the US or Germany our political and economic systems are more aligned with those countries than some other countries.
- Havoc 6y ago
  Kinda hard to are that any one intentionally introducing broken security are "the good guys"
  - chipperyman573 6y ago
    To flip this on its head, would you argue that the people working to secure the Nazi's torture camp computers were being the good guys? Did they have any ethical obligations to make it easier for Ally powers to decipher the records after the war was won (or even before) to help people reunite with their families?
khuey 6y ago
Boosters would argue that espionage/intelligence work helps keep the peace.
101404 6y ago
Not really. Spying among friendly nations is actually desired. Because it creates and improves trust. Of course, that excludes spying to steal intellectual property.
- tuco86 6y ago
  How does distrust create trust exactly? I give out trust freely (within reason) until it's broken. Gaining back trust is hard. When I find out you went through my mails to find out if I'm trustworthy, you loose my trust. When I learned of the BND's Crypto AG involvement I felt a deep sense of shame. All the CIA's fuck ups in south america for example. Not only the CIA anymore, we where involved too. Which makes me loose some trust in my government to act on my/our behalf. There is a cost to it and the benefits are questionable at best.
  - ciarannolan 6y ago
    >How does distrust create trust exactly? I think the idea is that it forces allies to interact with genuine intentions, lest one tries to deceive the other and is caught because of some intelligence that's been gathered. It's the backbone of a gentleman's agreement between allies to not act maliciously toward each other.
  - zip1234 6y ago
    One very prominent example is the Open Skies Treaty. Basically, signatories permit reconnaissance aircraft to fly over for the purposes of enforcing arms control. It is legalized spying.
  - dathinab 6y ago
    Yup like the time when the BND basically helps the US to do industrial espionage against Germany. And the when the government found out about it (through Snowden) and didn't really do anything. I mean even if giving asyl to Snowden wasn't possible permanently they could have given it to him for a short time to at least allow him to sadly speak in front of the German government. Or EU countries allowing extradition to countries which haven't signed the human rights charter (like the US, ironically Russia did sign it). Through then if we consider how the BND was founded it would be supposing if it's not at least partially undermined by some US intelligence agencies...
    - deathgrips 6y ago
blaser-waffle 6y ago
The Cold War was mostly a spy game and it kept the peace for decades. There was no gigantic WW3, no nuclear holocaust, and kept the regional conflicts limited to that specific region. Everyone plays the great game, even allies vs other allies (e.g. the French spying on US businesses, and the US NSA spying on Europeans during negotiations).
- vkou 6y ago
  Then why are so many people losing their minds, banging war drums every time someone blames China in some hack or other? Is it due to a poor public understanding of realpolitik?
  - Johnjonjoan 6y ago
    It's because China is becoming near peer and it unsettles people.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  Surely the threat of mass destruction had more to do with that so-called peace. And was it really peaceful? All that espionage essentially led to the proxy wars across the globe that cost countless number of lives.
  - deathgrips 6y ago
    How many people died in WW2 vs all wars after WW2?
    - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
      Why?
      - deathgrips 6y ago
        Proxy wars and spying kills less people than world wars. It's objectively better.
zip1234 6y ago
Most of intelligence that states sponsor is of the military variety. Things such as: - Where are all the SAM installations? - How many aircraft and tanks does such and such country have?
markus_zhang 6y ago
Well espionage is a closed circle and not many people knows how it's done. If you want more flavors just Google "operation gladio" and read all sort aof crazy things they did back in the CW.

corrupt_measure 6y ago

Because many of us come from the US and Germany and are what many consider the "good guys". Even if we don't come from the US or Germany our political and economic systems are more aligned with those countries than some other countries.

Havoc 6y ago
Kinda hard to are that any one intentionally introducing broken security are "the good guys"
- chipperyman573 6y ago
  To flip this on its head, would you argue that the people working to secure the Nazi's torture camp computers were being the good guys? Did they have any ethical obligations to make it easier for Ally powers to decipher the records after the war was won (or even before) to help people reunite with their families?

khuey 6y ago

Boosters would argue that espionage/intelligence work helps keep the peace.

101404 6y ago

Not really. Spying among friendly nations is actually desired. Because it creates and improves trust. Of course, that excludes spying to steal intellectual property.

tuco86 6y ago
How does distrust create trust exactly? I give out trust freely (within reason) until it's broken. Gaining back trust is hard. When I find out you went through my mails to find out if I'm trustworthy, you loose my trust. When I learned of the BND's Crypto AG involvement I felt a deep sense of shame. All the CIA's fuck ups in south america for example. Not only the CIA anymore, we where involved too. Which makes me loose some trust in my government to act on my/our behalf. There is a cost to it and the benefits are questionable at best.
- ciarannolan 6y ago
  >How does distrust create trust exactly? I think the idea is that it forces allies to interact with genuine intentions, lest one tries to deceive the other and is caught because of some intelligence that's been gathered. It's the backbone of a gentleman's agreement between allies to not act maliciously toward each other.
- zip1234 6y ago
  One very prominent example is the Open Skies Treaty. Basically, signatories permit reconnaissance aircraft to fly over for the purposes of enforcing arms control. It is legalized spying.
- dathinab 6y ago
  Yup like the time when the BND basically helps the US to do industrial espionage against Germany. And the when the government found out about it (through Snowden) and didn't really do anything. I mean even if giving asyl to Snowden wasn't possible permanently they could have given it to him for a short time to at least allow him to sadly speak in front of the German government. Or EU countries allowing extradition to countries which haven't signed the human rights charter (like the US, ironically Russia did sign it). Through then if we consider how the BND was founded it would be supposing if it's not at least partially undermined by some US intelligence agencies...
  - deathgrips 6y ago

blaser-waffle 6y ago

The Cold War was mostly a spy game and it kept the peace for decades. There was no gigantic WW3, no nuclear holocaust, and kept the regional conflicts limited to that specific region. Everyone plays the great game, even allies vs other allies (e.g. the French spying on US businesses, and the US NSA spying on Europeans during negotiations).

vkou 6y ago
Then why are so many people losing their minds, banging war drums every time someone blames China in some hack or other? Is it due to a poor public understanding of realpolitik?
- Johnjonjoan 6y ago
  It's because China is becoming near peer and it unsettles people.
ntsplnkv2 6y ago
Surely the threat of mass destruction had more to do with that so-called peace. And was it really peaceful? All that espionage essentially led to the proxy wars across the globe that cost countless number of lives.
- deathgrips 6y ago
  How many people died in WW2 vs all wars after WW2?
  - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
    Why?
    - deathgrips 6y ago
      Proxy wars and spying kills less people than world wars. It's objectively better.

zip1234 6y ago

Most of intelligence that states sponsor is of the military variety. Things such as: - Where are all the SAM installations? - How many aircraft and tanks does such and such country have?

markus_zhang 6y ago

Well espionage is a closed circle and not many people knows how it's done. If you want more flavors just Google "operation gladio" and read all sort aof crazy things they did back in the CW.