10 ms·

Many more, better, photos https://interestingengineering.com/stunning-roman-mosaic-floor-found-intact-under-a-vineyard-in-italy https://interestingengineering.c

by Cactus2018 6y ago

Many more, better, photos https://interestingengineering.com/stunning-roman-mosaic-floor-found-intact-under-a-vineyard-in-italy https://interestingengineering.com/stunning-roman-mosaic-flo...

koheripbal 6y ago
I can't even imagine how many discoveries like this are buried in Turkey, having been the center of the east Roman empire for a thousand years. I wish Turkey would allow archeological digs.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  Turkey allows archaeological digs, with only the same amount of red tape as in other nations around the Mediterranean. There have been a number of major excavations and discoveries in Turkey in recent decades.
- Mikeb85 6y ago
  The 'Eastern Roman' empire is just another name for 'Byzantine' empire and there's a ton of sites already discovered from that era.
  - Cactus2018 6y ago
    However, it was not until the mid-19th century that the term Byzantine came into general use in the Western world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire#Nomenclature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire#Nomenclature
    - Mikeb85 6y ago
      I'm aware and it doesn't matter what it's called, just pointing out that Byzantine = Eastern Roman Empire and that we've already uncovered a bunch of their ruins since OP seemed to be implying that we hadn't.
- diegoperini 6y ago
  I live in Turkey. I can confirm Turkey allows diggings if you can show proof you are capable of doing it. Leading such missions are mostly left to the academy for this reason. There is also a policy which I had the chance to witness it being forced which is if you encounter a historic finding when you farm your land or build a building, you are enforced to give up so that the land can be investigated. Most of the time, such land is never given back to the owner. They are compensated in some other form, depending on the type of ownership claim.
  - WalterBright 6y ago
    Such policies have a side effect of motivating the landowner to cover up or destroy the historic finding.
    - anticensor 6y ago
      Or just do it secretly.
- leviathant 6y ago
  As exciting as it is to make archaeological discoveries, one benefit of not allowing archaeological digs is that you're preserving what's under that dirt for future archaeologists who may have better techniques and tools, operating under a friendlier government. I say that in a complete vacuum with respect to Turkey. I'm guessing disallowing archaeological digs is has less to do with conservation & preservation and more to do with not getting in the way of real estate developers. I live in Philadelphia (Pennsylvania, not Alaşehir), where it's not that archaeological digs aren't allowed, but the trouble is that such digs are not mandated in the historical sections of the city, and as a result, so much history gets carted away in dump trucks.
  - danielfoster 6y ago
    Not sure how often this is followed but I read once while studying Roman history that best practice is to only excavate part of a site so that future generations can access it with better technology.
  - anticensor 6y ago
    > archaeological digs is has less to do with conservation & preservation and more to do with not getting in the way of real estate developers In Turkey, building stops if any archaeological finding is found in the process, until they come in and resolve the situation of the ruin. This may even lead to cancellation of the building project.
- willismonroe 6y ago
  I'm really curious about how you came to the conclusion that Turkey doesn't allow digs (not criticizing!). Like, I'm just wondering where the failure in PR was for archaeologists working in Turkey that it wasn't self-evident. Perhaps I'm biased (certainly) but Turkey often seems to be in the news for spectacular finds from archaeological digs across the country (focused mostly in the west though). I worked on a site in the SE for seven years, and there was a ton of activity every year many foreign but also Turkish digs working in every province.
- frandroid 6y ago
  I've spent almost the entire 3 weeks of my vacation in Turkey in 2015 visiting Roman archeological sites... From the Library of Celsus in Ephesus, to the entire hilltop in Bergama, to the cemetary and fantastic amphitheatre in Pamukkale, to the caves in Cappadocia (okay, those are post-Roman, but they're Christian)... Then there's the mind-blowing Hittite and Akkadian stuff at the Museum of Anatolian civilizations in Ankara... Walking along the Lycian way...
  - cat199 6y ago
    > okay, those are post-Roman Despite the spin from post-enlightement historians recasting everything between ~600-1600 into the 'dark ages', 'rome' as in 'the roman empire' didn't end in the east until 1453 (or possibly 1917, depending on how Romanov you go), and didn't end in the west until 1806 (or possibly 1914, depending on how Hapsburg you go). Not 'ancient rome', but still self-styled as 'rome' with a direct lineage in some form or fashion. Polemic aside, certainly cappadocian caves would fall under the 'eastern roman empire' category, albeit post-pagan as you point out.
    - bhaak 6y ago
      I agree with you on the eastern part of the Roman empire but what is the "direct lineage in some form or fashion" than brings you to 1806 for the western part? As Voltaire quipped: "The Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy nor Roman, nor an Empire" Just assuming the title of the Roman emperor is not really a direct lineage.
      - vmh1928 6y ago
        I believe he's referring to when the last Holy Roman Emperor abdicated in 1806. "The empire was dissolved on 6 August 1806, when the last Holy Roman Emperor Francis II (from 1804, Emperor Francis I of Austria) abdicated, following a military defeat by the French under Napoleon at Austerlitz (see Treaty of Pressburg)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire Although you could make an argument that the Roman Empire in the west ended in 476 C.E. when the last Roman emperor, Romulus, was overthrown by the Germanic leader Odoacer, who became the first Barbarian to rule in Rome. In 800 the Pope gave Charlemagne the title of Roman Emperor so there's a gap of 324 years with no emperor in the west. Meanwhile, the Roman Empire in the east continued to function.
- beloch 6y ago
  They do allow digs. Turkey, as a nation, just isn't as enthusiastic about archaeology as one might hope. This might be due to some unfounded perception of themselves as "invaders". To this day, many Greeks, Russians, etc. (mainly Eastern Orthodox Christians) still refer to Istanbul as Constantinople, as though it is under some form of illegitimate occupation. The West also still seems to view the fall of Constantinople as the fault of the Turkish people. Is it hard to blame the average Turkish citizen for being less then enthusiastic about exploring the history of what everyone around them views as somebody else's historical legacy? This all ignores the fact that the Eastern Empire declined steadily for centuries and lost territory to many other peoples besides the Turks, including both Greeks and Europeans. While we may view the conquest of Constantinople as the tragic end of the Roman empire, the fact is that the empire lived on in the institutions of the Ottoman empire and in its people. The Ottoman empire absorbed populations that were once Roman and, although their descendants today may adhere to a different religion, their culturual inheritance is still, in large part, Roman. This alienation of Turkish citizens from their heritage is now causing serious problems. Erdoğan's regime holds commercial interests to be supreme and has not hesitated to throw important sites under the bulldozer over minor delays. Roman ruins are widely viewed, not as the people's heritage, but as a foreign nuisance that is best swept away to make room for the new. This must change.
  - pm90 6y ago
    That is really sad to hear. Regardless of the past, archaeological ruins are collective humanities’ shared treasure and must be preserved. Somewhat OT, I wonder if there’s a way to teach history that wouldn’t make people’s dislike it just because of perceptions like this. The Roman and Ottoman empires don’t exist anymore, what do people get my being angry at states that are gone?
    - deleted 6y ago
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    - deleted 6y ago
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gibolt 6y ago
Really wish it detailed how they discovered it. Hope there wasn't some digging that ran into and destroyed some section. Can't wait to see a further analysis of the site. Hope they can use some techniques to measure the full scale and find even more interesting artifacts nearby
- aledalgrande 6y ago
  > After years of searching, the floor with the well-preserved tiles was finally discovered in the vineyard in northern Italy.
- zzapplezz 6y ago
  https://twitter.com/DapperHistorian/status/1265426857446514688 https://twitter.com/DapperHistorian/status/12654268574465146... "Old maps showed that a villa was in the area, but of course they didn't use scale until much later, so the exact location had been lost. This was the result of a long search to finally pinpoint it."

Many more, better, photos https://interestingengineering.com/stunning-roman-mosaic-floor-found-intact-under-a-vineyard-in-italy https://interestingengineering.com/stunning-roman-mosaic-flo...

koheripbal 6y ago

I can't even imagine how many discoveries like this are buried in Turkey, having been the center of the east Roman empire for a thousand years. I wish Turkey would allow archeological digs.

Mediterraneo10 6y ago
Turkey allows archaeological digs, with only the same amount of red tape as in other nations around the Mediterranean. There have been a number of major excavations and discoveries in Turkey in recent decades.
Mikeb85 6y ago
The 'Eastern Roman' empire is just another name for 'Byzantine' empire and there's a ton of sites already discovered from that era.
- Cactus2018 6y ago
  However, it was not until the mid-19th century that the term Byzantine came into general use in the Western world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire#Nomenclature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire#Nomenclature
  - Mikeb85 6y ago
    I'm aware and it doesn't matter what it's called, just pointing out that Byzantine = Eastern Roman Empire and that we've already uncovered a bunch of their ruins since OP seemed to be implying that we hadn't.
diegoperini 6y ago
I live in Turkey. I can confirm Turkey allows diggings if you can show proof you are capable of doing it. Leading such missions are mostly left to the academy for this reason. There is also a policy which I had the chance to witness it being forced which is if you encounter a historic finding when you farm your land or build a building, you are enforced to give up so that the land can be investigated. Most of the time, such land is never given back to the owner. They are compensated in some other form, depending on the type of ownership claim.
- WalterBright 6y ago
  Such policies have a side effect of motivating the landowner to cover up or destroy the historic finding.
  - anticensor 6y ago
    Or just do it secretly.
leviathant 6y ago
As exciting as it is to make archaeological discoveries, one benefit of not allowing archaeological digs is that you're preserving what's under that dirt for future archaeologists who may have better techniques and tools, operating under a friendlier government. I say that in a complete vacuum with respect to Turkey. I'm guessing disallowing archaeological digs is has less to do with conservation & preservation and more to do with not getting in the way of real estate developers. I live in Philadelphia (Pennsylvania, not Alaşehir), where it's not that archaeological digs aren't allowed, but the trouble is that such digs are not mandated in the historical sections of the city, and as a result, so much history gets carted away in dump trucks.
- danielfoster 6y ago
  Not sure how often this is followed but I read once while studying Roman history that best practice is to only excavate part of a site so that future generations can access it with better technology.
- anticensor 6y ago
  > archaeological digs is has less to do with conservation & preservation and more to do with not getting in the way of real estate developers In Turkey, building stops if any archaeological finding is found in the process, until they come in and resolve the situation of the ruin. This may even lead to cancellation of the building project.
willismonroe 6y ago
I'm really curious about how you came to the conclusion that Turkey doesn't allow digs (not criticizing!). Like, I'm just wondering where the failure in PR was for archaeologists working in Turkey that it wasn't self-evident. Perhaps I'm biased (certainly) but Turkey often seems to be in the news for spectacular finds from archaeological digs across the country (focused mostly in the west though). I worked on a site in the SE for seven years, and there was a ton of activity every year many foreign but also Turkish digs working in every province.
frandroid 6y ago
I've spent almost the entire 3 weeks of my vacation in Turkey in 2015 visiting Roman archeological sites... From the Library of Celsus in Ephesus, to the entire hilltop in Bergama, to the cemetary and fantastic amphitheatre in Pamukkale, to the caves in Cappadocia (okay, those are post-Roman, but they're Christian)... Then there's the mind-blowing Hittite and Akkadian stuff at the Museum of Anatolian civilizations in Ankara... Walking along the Lycian way...
- cat199 6y ago
  > okay, those are post-Roman Despite the spin from post-enlightement historians recasting everything between ~600-1600 into the 'dark ages', 'rome' as in 'the roman empire' didn't end in the east until 1453 (or possibly 1917, depending on how Romanov you go), and didn't end in the west until 1806 (or possibly 1914, depending on how Hapsburg you go). Not 'ancient rome', but still self-styled as 'rome' with a direct lineage in some form or fashion. Polemic aside, certainly cappadocian caves would fall under the 'eastern roman empire' category, albeit post-pagan as you point out.
  - bhaak 6y ago
    I agree with you on the eastern part of the Roman empire but what is the "direct lineage in some form or fashion" than brings you to 1806 for the western part? As Voltaire quipped: "The Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy nor Roman, nor an Empire" Just assuming the title of the Roman emperor is not really a direct lineage.
    - vmh1928 6y ago
      I believe he's referring to when the last Holy Roman Emperor abdicated in 1806. "The empire was dissolved on 6 August 1806, when the last Holy Roman Emperor Francis II (from 1804, Emperor Francis I of Austria) abdicated, following a military defeat by the French under Napoleon at Austerlitz (see Treaty of Pressburg)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire Although you could make an argument that the Roman Empire in the west ended in 476 C.E. when the last Roman emperor, Romulus, was overthrown by the Germanic leader Odoacer, who became the first Barbarian to rule in Rome. In 800 the Pope gave Charlemagne the title of Roman Emperor so there's a gap of 324 years with no emperor in the west. Meanwhile, the Roman Empire in the east continued to function.
beloch 6y ago
They do allow digs. Turkey, as a nation, just isn't as enthusiastic about archaeology as one might hope. This might be due to some unfounded perception of themselves as "invaders". To this day, many Greeks, Russians, etc. (mainly Eastern Orthodox Christians) still refer to Istanbul as Constantinople, as though it is under some form of illegitimate occupation. The West also still seems to view the fall of Constantinople as the fault of the Turkish people. Is it hard to blame the average Turkish citizen for being less then enthusiastic about exploring the history of what everyone around them views as somebody else's historical legacy? This all ignores the fact that the Eastern Empire declined steadily for centuries and lost territory to many other peoples besides the Turks, including both Greeks and Europeans. While we may view the conquest of Constantinople as the tragic end of the Roman empire, the fact is that the empire lived on in the institutions of the Ottoman empire and in its people. The Ottoman empire absorbed populations that were once Roman and, although their descendants today may adhere to a different religion, their culturual inheritance is still, in large part, Roman. This alienation of Turkish citizens from their heritage is now causing serious problems. Erdoğan's regime holds commercial interests to be supreme and has not hesitated to throw important sites under the bulldozer over minor delays. Roman ruins are widely viewed, not as the people's heritage, but as a foreign nuisance that is best swept away to make room for the new. This must change.
- pm90 6y ago
  That is really sad to hear. Regardless of the past, archaeological ruins are collective humanities’ shared treasure and must be preserved. Somewhat OT, I wonder if there’s a way to teach history that wouldn’t make people’s dislike it just because of perceptions like this. The Roman and Ottoman empires don’t exist anymore, what do people get my being angry at states that are gone?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 6y ago

gibolt 6y ago

Really wish it detailed how they discovered it. Hope there wasn't some digging that ran into and destroyed some section. Can't wait to see a further analysis of the site. Hope they can use some techniques to measure the full scale and find even more interesting artifacts nearby

aledalgrande 6y ago
> After years of searching, the floor with the well-preserved tiles was finally discovered in the vineyard in northern Italy.
zzapplezz 6y ago
https://twitter.com/DapperHistorian/status/1265426857446514688 https://twitter.com/DapperHistorian/status/12654268574465146... "Old maps showed that a villa was in the area, but of course they didn't use scale until much later, so the exact location had been lost. This was the result of a long search to finally pinpoint it."