4 ms·

Particularly in the case of a 1950s drug that has been consumed by millions of people, and which as far as I know was available without prescription until covid

by cm2187 6y ago

Particularly in the case of a 1950s drug that has been consumed by millions of people, and which as far as I know was available without prescription until covid. It’s like saying aspirin is dangerous. Sure. At a certain dosage.

bonzini 6y ago
Quinine-based drugs are no small thing. They are neurotoxic even at low dosages, for example (the somewhat-related antimalaric drug mefloquine very often causes really bad nightmares, at the very low prophylactic dosage, and it has a long half life so they persist even a few weeks after you've stopped taking it).
- lenkite 6y ago
  We are talking about HCQ. Perhaps its use is strange in the US, but in India its commonly prescribed for malaria (and also lupus, arthritis). My entire extended family (ex-military) has taken HCQ at one point of time or another. No ill-effects for millions of people. Heavy dosages should be avoided of-course.
mariodiana 6y ago
Exactly. And the dosage being given for COVID-19 patients is comparable to the dosage given for patients with chronic conditions such as lupus, only the COVID-19 patients are given the drug for something like a week, while the chronic patients are given the drug indefinitely. Meanwhile, drugs like benzodiazepines are basically just dumped on a largely unwitting populace with the tacit blessing of these very same people who are fretting about hydroxychloroquine. There is more than simply the disinterested caution of science going on here.
- lbeltrame 6y ago
  To be honest, dosage varies a lot across countries. The trials in Brazil gave very high dosage, which can probably explain the deaths from cardiotoxicity there.
- core-questions 6y ago
  Shh, don't mention the opiate / benzo crisis. We know this disproportionately affects Middle America, and therefore is not something we can bring up as a serious topic of conversation.
frenchyatwork 6y ago
The risk of treating patients with pain-reducing levels of ASA (aspirin) is actually a significant issue, and it's not hard to find papers covering this issue, and reporting data on it. It's usually in older populations who are more likely to be in pain and also more likely to die from a stomach bleed.
- cm2187 6y ago
  Yeah. But like every drug in the world has contraindications. By this standard all drugs are dangerous and should be banned from trials.
  - frenchyatwork 6y ago
    I think I misunderstood you. I thought you were suggesting we should give drugs to people regardless of the fact that the randomized controlled trials say that the drug doesn't provide any significant benefit. Giving widespread ASA to a population that wouldn't benefit from it would be a bad idea.
    - cm2187 6y ago
      Well I am personally in favour of doing randomized control trials, not to cancel them based on what appear to be a weak statistical analysis. There was an argument to not wait at the peak of the epidemic rather than not treating (and some of these trials are only starting, which baffles me). But these trials should have been done from the outset. Doctors in the heat of the moment cannot wait for a randomized trial. They started keeping patients off intrusive ventilators without doing a randomized trial, based on annecdotal evidence. But these trials still need to happen.
      - vharuck 6y ago
        According to most of the countries mentioned in the article, trials of HCQ are still going on. The WHO put its trial on pause. Other countries are just stopping the use of HCQ outside of approved trials.
halflings 6y ago
Aspirin can be deadly if used to treat patients with an hemorrhage. Likewise, treating patients that are infected by a virus is not like preventing malaria in heathy people might to be exposed to a deadly virus like malaria, especially when most deaths are from older people which might be more sensitive to side effects.
- frenchyatwork 6y ago
  Maybe this is pedantic, but malaria isn't caused by a virus. It's caused by a single-celled group of eukaryots called Plasmodium.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

by cm2187 6y ago

bonzini 6y ago

Quinine-based drugs are no small thing. They are neurotoxic even at low dosages, for example (the somewhat-related antimalaric drug mefloquine very often causes really bad nightmares, at the very low prophylactic dosage, and it has a long half life so they persist even a few weeks after you've stopped taking it).

lenkite 6y ago
We are talking about HCQ. Perhaps its use is strange in the US, but in India its commonly prescribed for malaria (and also lupus, arthritis). My entire extended family (ex-military) has taken HCQ at one point of time or another. No ill-effects for millions of people. Heavy dosages should be avoided of-course.

mariodiana 6y ago

Exactly. And the dosage being given for COVID-19 patients is comparable to the dosage given for patients with chronic conditions such as lupus, only the COVID-19 patients are given the drug for something like a week, while the chronic patients are given the drug indefinitely. Meanwhile, drugs like benzodiazepines are basically just dumped on a largely unwitting populace with the tacit blessing of these very same people who are fretting about hydroxychloroquine. There is more than simply the disinterested caution of science going on here.

lbeltrame 6y ago
To be honest, dosage varies a lot across countries. The trials in Brazil gave very high dosage, which can probably explain the deaths from cardiotoxicity there.
core-questions 6y ago
Shh, don't mention the opiate / benzo crisis. We know this disproportionately affects Middle America, and therefore is not something we can bring up as a serious topic of conversation.

frenchyatwork 6y ago

The risk of treating patients with pain-reducing levels of ASA (aspirin) is actually a significant issue, and it's not hard to find papers covering this issue, and reporting data on it. It's usually in older populations who are more likely to be in pain and also more likely to die from a stomach bleed.

cm2187 6y ago
Yeah. But like every drug in the world has contraindications. By this standard all drugs are dangerous and should be banned from trials.
- frenchyatwork 6y ago
  I think I misunderstood you. I thought you were suggesting we should give drugs to people regardless of the fact that the randomized controlled trials say that the drug doesn't provide any significant benefit. Giving widespread ASA to a population that wouldn't benefit from it would be a bad idea.
  - cm2187 6y ago
    Well I am personally in favour of doing randomized control trials, not to cancel them based on what appear to be a weak statistical analysis. There was an argument to not wait at the peak of the epidemic rather than not treating (and some of these trials are only starting, which baffles me). But these trials should have been done from the outset. Doctors in the heat of the moment cannot wait for a randomized trial. They started keeping patients off intrusive ventilators without doing a randomized trial, based on annecdotal evidence. But these trials still need to happen.
    - vharuck 6y ago
      According to most of the countries mentioned in the article, trials of HCQ are still going on. The WHO put its trial on pause. Other countries are just stopping the use of HCQ outside of approved trials.

halflings 6y ago

Aspirin can be deadly if used to treat patients with an hemorrhage. Likewise, treating patients that are infected by a virus is not like preventing malaria in heathy people might to be exposed to a deadly virus like malaria, especially when most deaths are from older people which might be more sensitive to side effects.

frenchyatwork 6y ago
Maybe this is pedantic, but malaria isn't caused by a virus. It's caused by a single-celled group of eukaryots called Plasmodium.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]