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40+ here. There is definitely unconscious age-ism going on, and if you want to beat it: * If you have 20 years of experience in the software industry, let's be

40+ here. There is definitely unconscious age-ism going on, and if you want to beat it: * If you have 20 years of experience in the software industry, let's be real, you kinda need to be at a senior/lead level (whether IC or manager track). If you're not, then people are going to wonder why you aren't, and whether you're stuck reliving the old days * Decades of experience in C/Java is not going to work at a React shop. Either learn (and be opinionated about!) frameworks built in the last 5 years, or stick to somewhere within your expertise * Don't make yourself appear ancient on your resume, but don't lie either. If you got a degree in the 90's then it should be apparent from reading your resume, and if they want to discriminate they'll do so right from the start and not waste your time. * Avoid the "grumpy old programmer" stereotype at all costs. Instead, you want to be the "bad-ass wizard" that people need to solve hard problems, and people want Gandalf, not Saruman

Lendal 6y ago
Are there people who only want to spend their lives doing the same thing every day? Decades of experience in C and Java ought to work just fine for someone who wants to try something new, like React. I learned React after decades of experience in other things, and I loved it. I don't see why it should matter what I did in the past. Was I successful? Did I enjoy it? Will I come to work every day energized and ready to work on new things? Those are the things that matter.
- drchopchop 6y ago
  Well, I spent years doing C, then Java, and now I'm a CTO at a tech company that's a React/Typescript/Ruby shop. However, I needed to sit down and spend the time to actually learn those technologies. What you don't want is to interview for a React job with only a cursory/tutorial knowledge of it, and try to fall back to "well I'm an expert at 10 other languages, it's all easy". A lot of companies are looking for that expertise now, not to spend 6 months training you on the job, especially at a big salary and title.
  - vonmoltke 6y ago
    > What you don't want is to interview for a React job with only a cursory/tutorial knowledge of it The problem I encountered as I hit the 10-year mark is that it is hard to get the interview when you have extensive professional experience and none of it is in $TECH the company is looking for.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      I'm not sure that's unreasonable in general and it goes beyond just $TECH. I have experience and skills in a lot of different areas and, sure, I could pick up new skills in related areas of business and tech fairly quickly. However, if a company is looking for a senior person to "hit the ground running" in an area where I have at best peripheral experience, I wouldn't seriously expect to get hired--especially as an IC. The details matter of course. If $TECH is something relatively new without a lot of experienced practitioners, it may be reasonable to hire someone with a lot of experience in somewhat related techs. But no matter how skilled the person is, you're probably not going to hire someone for front-end or mobile development who has only ever worked on back-end infrastructure.
      - drchopchop 6y ago
        Right, it's not so much a reflection of age-ism as it is just not having the skills in the job description. It doesn't matter if you're 25 or 45 - if they need X years of language Y, it's for a reason and 20 years of generic dev experience is not usually an acceptable substitute.
        vonmoltke 6y ago
        I don't understand the point you were making in the original post then. > What you don't want is to interview for a React job with only a cursory/tutorial knowledge of it, and try to fall back to "well I'm an expert at 10 other languages, it's all easy" Of course I would expect someone who claimed professional experience with React to have more than "a cursory/tutorial knowledge of it". In the post that started this chain, though, you said > Decades of experience in C/Java is not going to work at a React shop. Either learn (and be opinionated about!) frameworks built in the last 5 years, or stick to somewhere within your expertise I take that (in combination with the above) to mean that you somehow need to get a job where you can use React in order to get a job where you use React. I'm not sure what the point of that advice is, then. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something here.
noirbot 6y ago
I think that last point is a lot of it - Even with people that have 10 years of experience or less, one of the big things that can stick out to me in an interview is if someone seems dogmatic or in a position where their word has been law for years. The last thing I want on a team is someone who's going to be a stick in the mud and behave poorly if the team or organization decides to do something in a way they don't agree with. Especially with a Senior/Principal Engineer, I'm looking for someone who can make the case for our decisions as a team to the company at large, and speak with authority about it. However, that can't just involve them being a dictator to the team about how everything must be done in their favorite/preferred way.
downerending 6y ago
> Avoid the "grumpy old programmer" stereotype at all costs. Instead, you want to be the "bad-ass wizard" that people need to solve hard problems, and people want Gandalf, not Saruman. Fair enough, but that's kind of hard to show in an interview. My typical experience is that the first couple of months on a job, I'm soaking the whole place up (i.e., figuring out their unique accumulated horrors), and my bosses typically have no idea what I'm doing (and are thinking they made a mistake hiring me). Then suddenly (to them) I start becoming really productive, and in short order they realize I'm the guy who can solve the problems no one else can. Once had a boss cry when I turned in my notice. But how do you sell that?
- infinite8s 6y ago
  That's tough to sell. Hopefully you built up a good network at the same time.
  - downerending 6y ago
    Unfortunately, not too much, though it has worked a few times. Part of what makes me good at tech makes me bad at networking, or so it feels. But yes, my advice to others would be to hit this hard.

Lendal 6y ago

Are there people who only want to spend their lives doing the same thing every day? Decades of experience in C and Java ought to work just fine for someone who wants to try something new, like React. I learned React after decades of experience in other things, and I loved it. I don't see why it should matter what I did in the past. Was I successful? Did I enjoy it? Will I come to work every day energized and ready to work on new things? Those are the things that matter.

drchopchop 6y ago
Well, I spent years doing C, then Java, and now I'm a CTO at a tech company that's a React/Typescript/Ruby shop. However, I needed to sit down and spend the time to actually learn those technologies. What you don't want is to interview for a React job with only a cursory/tutorial knowledge of it, and try to fall back to "well I'm an expert at 10 other languages, it's all easy". A lot of companies are looking for that expertise now, not to spend 6 months training you on the job, especially at a big salary and title.
- vonmoltke 6y ago
  > What you don't want is to interview for a React job with only a cursory/tutorial knowledge of it The problem I encountered as I hit the 10-year mark is that it is hard to get the interview when you have extensive professional experience and none of it is in $TECH the company is looking for.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    I'm not sure that's unreasonable in general and it goes beyond just $TECH. I have experience and skills in a lot of different areas and, sure, I could pick up new skills in related areas of business and tech fairly quickly. However, if a company is looking for a senior person to "hit the ground running" in an area where I have at best peripheral experience, I wouldn't seriously expect to get hired--especially as an IC. The details matter of course. If $TECH is something relatively new without a lot of experienced practitioners, it may be reasonable to hire someone with a lot of experience in somewhat related techs. But no matter how skilled the person is, you're probably not going to hire someone for front-end or mobile development who has only ever worked on back-end infrastructure.
    - drchopchop 6y ago
      Right, it's not so much a reflection of age-ism as it is just not having the skills in the job description. It doesn't matter if you're 25 or 45 - if they need X years of language Y, it's for a reason and 20 years of generic dev experience is not usually an acceptable substitute.
      - vonmoltke 6y ago
        I don't understand the point you were making in the original post then. > What you don't want is to interview for a React job with only a cursory/tutorial knowledge of it, and try to fall back to "well I'm an expert at 10 other languages, it's all easy" Of course I would expect someone who claimed professional experience with React to have more than "a cursory/tutorial knowledge of it". In the post that started this chain, though, you said > Decades of experience in C/Java is not going to work at a React shop. Either learn (and be opinionated about!) frameworks built in the last 5 years, or stick to somewhere within your expertise I take that (in combination with the above) to mean that you somehow need to get a job where you can use React in order to get a job where you use React. I'm not sure what the point of that advice is, then. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something here.

noirbot 6y ago

I think that last point is a lot of it - Even with people that have 10 years of experience or less, one of the big things that can stick out to me in an interview is if someone seems dogmatic or in a position where their word has been law for years. The last thing I want on a team is someone who's going to be a stick in the mud and behave poorly if the team or organization decides to do something in a way they don't agree with. Especially with a Senior/Principal Engineer, I'm looking for someone who can make the case for our decisions as a team to the company at large, and speak with authority about it. However, that can't just involve them being a dictator to the team about how everything must be done in their favorite/preferred way.

downerending 6y ago

> Avoid the "grumpy old programmer" stereotype at all costs. Instead, you want to be the "bad-ass wizard" that people need to solve hard problems, and people want Gandalf, not Saruman. Fair enough, but that's kind of hard to show in an interview. My typical experience is that the first couple of months on a job, I'm soaking the whole place up (i.e., figuring out their unique accumulated horrors), and my bosses typically have no idea what I'm doing (and are thinking they made a mistake hiring me). Then suddenly (to them) I start becoming really productive, and in short order they realize I'm the guy who can solve the problems no one else can. Once had a boss cry when I turned in my notice. But how do you sell that?

infinite8s 6y ago
That's tough to sell. Hopefully you built up a good network at the same time.
- downerending 6y ago
  Unfortunately, not too much, though it has worked a few times. Part of what makes me good at tech makes me bad at networking, or so it feels. But yes, my advice to others would be to hit this hard.