4 ms·

Is there not a distinction here? If someone has spent 20 years working at a trade, and is indistinguishable from a fresh graduate, is this 'ageism'?

OzzyB 6y ago
We're not talking about someone who says they have 20+ years experience and therefore wants to be considered for <Top Wizard Role>. It's rather that, if you spent the last 20 years building CRUD apps (some even made ppl money and were successful!) and some kid also built a CRUD app, you're fucked, because as you get older you're expected to be some kind of brilliant outlier -- afterall, what have you been doing for the last 20 years?! This is what ageism really is, and it sucks because you can easily spend/waste a decade on some project/startup that goes nowhere, or worse still, some tech stack that's now defunct or deemed archaic. This is why I like to joke that I'm a Senior Flash Developer with over 20 years experience, hire me please xD
- mech422 6y ago
  If a master cabinet maker's work is indistinguishable from an apprentice's work is there not a problem? If you spend 20 years doing the same work, do you have to be a 'brilliant outlier' to have insights a junior person doesn't? edit spelling/punct.
novocaine 6y ago
It's a structural problem. If everyone expects 20 years of experience people to be principal engineers, and only 5% of roles are principal jobs, then after 20 years 95% of engineers need to leave the industry. And so, the industry is mostly populated by inexperienced people and many of its pathologies and adverse outcomes are due to this.
- rabidrat 6y ago
  I agree with the sentiment, but in this industry which has exponential growth, the number of people in it doubles every 5 years, I think. So if you've been working 20 years, there are now 16x as many people as when you started...so you are in the most senior 6% of people if you managed to stick around.
- moneywoes 6y ago
  Is fair to say we have an up and out culture like big law, consulting and finance?
  - novocaine 6y ago
    Yes, but nobody under 35 realises they're perpetuating it until its their ass getting upped and outed like everyone else
- mech422 6y ago
  Except after 20 years in the industry, there's a vast amount more work available...And the industry is still running at a shortage of tech. people. (oddly enough, the 'average' programmers entire career was 10 years last I checked. People seem to burn out and move on..)
- s1artibartfast 6y ago
  > 20 years of experience people to be principal engineers and only 5% of roles are principal jobs, then after 20 years 95% of engineers need to leave the industry. I'm not sure I follow your math. 5% of roles are principal jobs, but devs with 20+ years are not 100% of the talent pool. This doesn't hold up if devs with 20+ years are are 5% or less of the talent pool.
  - novocaine 6y ago
    You're right - my comment was sloppy! Still, given "20+ years of experience" represents all programmers of ages, say, 45-65 - or two decades worth of CS graduates - I feel that cohort far exceeds the market for principals? If you think it is smaller, maybe that's because everyone who wasn't in the top n% had to leave? Although other commenters have pointed out that the growth of the industry counters that, that won't last forever!
    - s1artibartfast 6y ago
      I thought it was an interesting question and found this page[1] . It is a survey of 50k devs on Stack overflow. 3.8% percent of those surveyed were over 50. Cenensus data here[1] gives ~20% over 50 https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/2-out-of-3-developers-are-self-taught-and-other-insights-from-stack-overflow-s-2016-survey-of-50-8cf0ee5d4c21/ https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/2-out-of-3-developers-are-... https://datausa.io/profile/soc/15113X/#about https://datausa.io/profile/soc/15113X/#about

OzzyB 6y ago

We're not talking about someone who says they have 20+ years experience and therefore wants to be considered for <Top Wizard Role>. It's rather that, if you spent the last 20 years building CRUD apps (some even made ppl money and were successful!) and some kid also built a CRUD app, you're fucked, because as you get older you're expected to be some kind of brilliant outlier -- afterall, what have you been doing for the last 20 years?! This is what ageism really is, and it sucks because you can easily spend/waste a decade on some project/startup that goes nowhere, or worse still, some tech stack that's now defunct or deemed archaic. This is why I like to joke that I'm a Senior Flash Developer with over 20 years experience, hire me please xD

mech422 6y ago
If a master cabinet maker's work is indistinguishable from an apprentice's work is there not a problem? If you spend 20 years doing the same work, do you have to be a 'brilliant outlier' to have insights a junior person doesn't? edit spelling/punct.

novocaine 6y ago

It's a structural problem. If everyone expects 20 years of experience people to be principal engineers, and only 5% of roles are principal jobs, then after 20 years 95% of engineers need to leave the industry. And so, the industry is mostly populated by inexperienced people and many of its pathologies and adverse outcomes are due to this.

rabidrat 6y ago
I agree with the sentiment, but in this industry which has exponential growth, the number of people in it doubles every 5 years, I think. So if you've been working 20 years, there are now 16x as many people as when you started...so you are in the most senior 6% of people if you managed to stick around.
moneywoes 6y ago
Is fair to say we have an up and out culture like big law, consulting and finance?
- novocaine 6y ago
  Yes, but nobody under 35 realises they're perpetuating it until its their ass getting upped and outed like everyone else
mech422 6y ago
Except after 20 years in the industry, there's a vast amount more work available...And the industry is still running at a shortage of tech. people. (oddly enough, the 'average' programmers entire career was 10 years last I checked. People seem to burn out and move on..)
s1artibartfast 6y ago
> 20 years of experience people to be principal engineers and only 5% of roles are principal jobs, then after 20 years 95% of engineers need to leave the industry. I'm not sure I follow your math. 5% of roles are principal jobs, but devs with 20+ years are not 100% of the talent pool. This doesn't hold up if devs with 20+ years are are 5% or less of the talent pool.
- novocaine 6y ago
  You're right - my comment was sloppy! Still, given "20+ years of experience" represents all programmers of ages, say, 45-65 - or two decades worth of CS graduates - I feel that cohort far exceeds the market for principals? If you think it is smaller, maybe that's because everyone who wasn't in the top n% had to leave? Although other commenters have pointed out that the growth of the industry counters that, that won't last forever!
  - s1artibartfast 6y ago
    I thought it was an interesting question and found this page[1] . It is a survey of 50k devs on Stack overflow. 3.8% percent of those surveyed were over 50. Cenensus data here[1] gives ~20% over 50 https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/2-out-of-3-developers-are-self-taught-and-other-insights-from-stack-overflow-s-2016-survey-of-50-8cf0ee5d4c21/ https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/2-out-of-3-developers-are-... https://datausa.io/profile/soc/15113X/#about https://datausa.io/profile/soc/15113X/#about