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I find myself biasing towards older devs. The old guys tend to trend towards reliable tech, reliable architectures. They're done playing around. They have fa

by swalsh 6y ago

I find myself biasing towards older devs. The old guys tend to trend towards reliable tech, reliable architectures. They're done playing around. They have families at home, so they want to get the work done... and go home. They do things that they know will work. They might not be using whatever the fad of the day is... and sometimes there are missed opportunties from that. But more often it means the stuff they build has less bullshit issues that comes from untested, immature technology. That said, older devs can be very stubborn. If in the interview I detect that I'm not going to be able to work well with the person. I might pass.

danieltillett 6y ago
Stubbornness is the killer. The young just don’t have anything to be stubborn about, but for a manager one greybeard who knows how to cause problems by digging their heels in will make your life hell. The fact that they are probably right just adds to the pain.
- toyg 6y ago
  > The young just don’t have anything to be stubborn about ... except that "things should be done RIGHT", "my professor would hate these hacks", "why are you using boring-tech when everyone else on the intertubes is using OMGTEKK", etc etc. I think the "stubborn" label on older men is very similar to the "bitch" label on women: whenever one meets a person who can actually fight his/her corner with calm and rationality in a way that is not easily assailable by "common feelings", it is rationalised as s/he being fundamentally unreasonable, not as my arguments being weak.
- gedy 6y ago
  > The young just don’t have anything to be stubborn about Haha, that never stops the ones I work with. They just dig in on the exciting idea they had.
  - danieltillett 6y ago
    The young have lots of passion, but they can be distracted by the next shiny thing. Managing passion is easy compared to managing the stubbornness gained from experience.
- peruvian 6y ago
  The young have plenty of stuff to be stubborn about. At my company we've wasted so much time because people are stubborn about using some new tech or library.
  - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
    Hammer/nail syndrome. And often people early in their careers who have managed to get some modicum of fame/motivation/movement around a particular hammer run around finding nails everywhere. And there are some who are particularly effective at shoving whole organizations in their preferred direction. Not to say people at my stage in their career don't do this, too, but it does tend to happen among the young and... motivated.
- swalsh 6y ago
  "The fact that they are probably right just adds to the pain." 100% true. It's the dichotomy of leadership. Typically in engineering environments, the debate will be to take a risk or not. Risks can have rewards, but they can also have costs. The old guy knows the costs, but the rewards are less certain. The young guy only has a fuzzy idea on the rewards and the risks. As a leader, you have to look at both sides and assess if the reward is worth the risk. Sometimes that means telling the old guy, you're right... but I want to try anyways.
jameshart 6y ago
I know you are trying to be kind but what you are doing here is expressing ageist prejudices. You wouldn’t (I hope) write something ascribing specific behaviors to all female devs, or Indian devs, right? So please don’t do the same for older ones. I’m in my forties and quite capable of getting caught up in the excitement over a new technology. On the other hand I think I’ve matured out of the stubbornness I had in my twenties. I’ve met young developers who get so caught up in the mastery of their first tech stack that they aren’t ready to go back to being a beginner again, and haven’t seen enough ways of solving problems to recognize that what they think is the only right way to solve a problem could possibly have an alternative. If you’re looking for ‘use boring technology’ enthusiasts and people open to changing their mind, go out and interview and hire for those attributes, wherever you find them - but don’t assume they’re only going to be found in older developers. And if you’re looking for someone to explore new technology, consider that an older dev might be just as enthusiastic as a junior, rather than assuming.
- m12k 6y ago
  Do you believe you are as likely to find a 'use boring technology' enthusiast when interviewing a young developer as when interviewing an older developer?
  - jameshart 6y ago
    Do you believe, when interviewing an individual, it is helpful to make assumptions about them based on their age before you start the interview?
    - m12k 6y ago
      If what I'm looking for is an experienced developer to round out a team (e.g. if it has a bunch of junior devs already), then I'm gonna look pretty silly interviewing a freshly graduated 23-year old. I'm not going to assume any old dev is wise or experienced, but I'll use heuristics and basic logic to figure out who it even makes sense to interview.
- collyw 6y ago
wbsun 6y ago
> The old guys tend to trend towards reliable tech, reliable architectures. That's because they have experiences, the experiences from past failures. I don't think that's anything wrong.

by swalsh 6y ago

danieltillett 6y ago

Stubbornness is the killer. The young just don’t have anything to be stubborn about, but for a manager one greybeard who knows how to cause problems by digging their heels in will make your life hell. The fact that they are probably right just adds to the pain.

toyg 6y ago
> The young just don’t have anything to be stubborn about ... except that "things should be done RIGHT", "my professor would hate these hacks", "why are you using boring-tech when everyone else on the intertubes is using OMGTEKK", etc etc. I think the "stubborn" label on older men is very similar to the "bitch" label on women: whenever one meets a person who can actually fight his/her corner with calm and rationality in a way that is not easily assailable by "common feelings", it is rationalised as s/he being fundamentally unreasonable, not as my arguments being weak.
gedy 6y ago
> The young just don’t have anything to be stubborn about Haha, that never stops the ones I work with. They just dig in on the exciting idea they had.
- danieltillett 6y ago
  The young have lots of passion, but they can be distracted by the next shiny thing. Managing passion is easy compared to managing the stubbornness gained from experience.
peruvian 6y ago
The young have plenty of stuff to be stubborn about. At my company we've wasted so much time because people are stubborn about using some new tech or library.
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  Hammer/nail syndrome. And often people early in their careers who have managed to get some modicum of fame/motivation/movement around a particular hammer run around finding nails everywhere. And there are some who are particularly effective at shoving whole organizations in their preferred direction. Not to say people at my stage in their career don't do this, too, but it does tend to happen among the young and... motivated.
swalsh 6y ago
"The fact that they are probably right just adds to the pain." 100% true. It's the dichotomy of leadership. Typically in engineering environments, the debate will be to take a risk or not. Risks can have rewards, but they can also have costs. The old guy knows the costs, but the rewards are less certain. The young guy only has a fuzzy idea on the rewards and the risks. As a leader, you have to look at both sides and assess if the reward is worth the risk. Sometimes that means telling the old guy, you're right... but I want to try anyways.

jameshart 6y ago

I know you are trying to be kind but what you are doing here is expressing ageist prejudices. You wouldn’t (I hope) write something ascribing specific behaviors to all female devs, or Indian devs, right? So please don’t do the same for older ones. I’m in my forties and quite capable of getting caught up in the excitement over a new technology. On the other hand I think I’ve matured out of the stubbornness I had in my twenties. I’ve met young developers who get so caught up in the mastery of their first tech stack that they aren’t ready to go back to being a beginner again, and haven’t seen enough ways of solving problems to recognize that what they think is the only right way to solve a problem could possibly have an alternative. If you’re looking for ‘use boring technology’ enthusiasts and people open to changing their mind, go out and interview and hire for those attributes, wherever you find them - but don’t assume they’re only going to be found in older developers. And if you’re looking for someone to explore new technology, consider that an older dev might be just as enthusiastic as a junior, rather than assuming.

m12k 6y ago
Do you believe you are as likely to find a 'use boring technology' enthusiast when interviewing a young developer as when interviewing an older developer?
- jameshart 6y ago
  Do you believe, when interviewing an individual, it is helpful to make assumptions about them based on their age before you start the interview?
  - m12k 6y ago
    If what I'm looking for is an experienced developer to round out a team (e.g. if it has a bunch of junior devs already), then I'm gonna look pretty silly interviewing a freshly graduated 23-year old. I'm not going to assume any old dev is wise or experienced, but I'll use heuristics and basic logic to figure out who it even makes sense to interview.
collyw 6y ago

wbsun 6y ago

> The old guys tend to trend towards reliable tech, reliable architectures. That's because they have experiences, the experiences from past failures. I don't think that's anything wrong.