6 ms·

This does seem to be a mantra on HN. I can't speak for anyone else, but where I live "junior developer" positions are looking for 3+ years experience, "Preferab

This does seem to be a mantra on HN. I can't speak for anyone else, but where I live "junior developer" positions are looking for 3+ years experience, "Preferably" a masters degree in computer science, expert Linux, HTML and JavaScript, and so forth. While globally it is a hacker's job market, those of us who are not currently free to move to where the jobs are (I'm a single parent and don't want to uproot my kid again) sometimes have to try to get our foot in the door in this employer's market by begging for the chance to work even for free. Not trying to be a Debbie Downer at all, by the way. I moved from the valley to the Midwest (I know, I know...) so I know that there are tons of jobs for people like me (and Vlad, probably). However in my opinion "Don't work for free for a for-profit company!" isn't advice everyone is in a position to follow. I wish I could. (Disclaimer: I am a junior dev with Django/js experience in both personal and open-source projects, without a degree. So take my whining for what it's worth.)

bradleyland 16y ago
Don't sell yourself short either. If you can't get paying work doing what you're doing, take the startup advice and pivot.
- mattdeboard 16y ago
  If I had a single great idea, I would :P Best I've done is build a pinboard clone.
  - blrgeek 16y ago
    There you go then! Just pick one, and start banging away :) http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+Dump+March+2011+Edition http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+Dump+March+2011+Edition http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+dump+February+2011+edition http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+dump+February+2011+editi... http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+dump+January+2011+edition http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+dump+January+2011+editio... http://jacquesmattheij.com/My+list+of+ideas+for+when+you+are+looking+for+inspiration http://jacquesmattheij.com/My+list+of+ideas+for+when+you+are...
  - KishoreKumar 16y ago
    Same as above reply, but in my way. Google for: intitle:"Idea Dump" OR inurl:"idea+dump" site:jacquesmattheij.com
zievo 16y ago
"I'm a single parent" Respect.
- mattdeboard 16y ago
  Thanks. For bonus points, I'm a single dad raising a little girl with no mom in the picture. She likes science and math, and has a few ideas for a website or two :P
  - jonkelly 16y ago
    Awesome. My daughter is 7 and also loves math - I can't wait to get her coding!
    - mattdeboard 16y ago
      I'm taking it slow with her so I don't totally put her off it. She's starting to ask what I'm doing while I'm at my computer, and she was shocked that I actually made a website that she could access and use from a different computer. "You made this? Wow!"
  - mangoleaf 16y ago
    I'm a single father of an 11yo boy. He started saying things like "I want to make...." when he was 8ish and then I showed him a some html and got him his own domain to play with and call his own. But when I showed him view-source, it really took off. He went to some site that archived sites from 10 years ago of some games/toys/shows that he likes and viewsourced them all and started adding features to his site (actually plural now). After playing with that for awhile, he wanted to make "forums" and etc., and so needed some php. First with text files, then mysql. It has been fun watching him.
    - mattdeboard 16y ago
      That's really great. My daughter is more into art right now. I'm already working hard to dissuade her from an art degree.
wheels 16y ago
The presumption here is that doing open source work does not open doors to employment – in fact, that's quite far from the truth. If you're a contributor to a well known open source project there are lots of doors that are opened by being plugged into a network of other good developers that are often being pinged by people looking for work to be done. Prior to starting a startup virtually every job that I'd gotten had been either a result of or significantly influence by having done significant open source stuff and to this day, despite having been mostly inactive in open source stuff for about 4 years, I still regularly have people contact me asking if I'm available for contract work.
- mattdeboard 16y ago
  Oh, I don't dispute that whatsoever. I'm working on an open source project via a connection I made here on HackerNews. It's not an employment thing but I'm working with one of the (employed) team-leaders on the project. I know it looks great. But it would be nice programming to pay the bills in the meantime instead of whatever else I've got to do. (edit: I should say I left a career in another industry to pursue programming full-time, so I'm not complaining about having to do other things. I knew it was a gamble, but it was and still is worth it.)
- codexon 16y ago
  The presumption here is that doing open source work does not open doors to employment - in fact, that's quite far from the truth. It is in my experience that in large open source projects that anyone is impressed with, the people with commit privileges don't want more contributors. It is like Wikipedia where if you make an edit to their code or a replacement, they take personal offense to it and will fight you tooth and nail to get it ignored. Or in one case, just ignore me for over a year saying they will merge it and never do it. Or if they merge it, they don't give me credit.
Ixiaus 16y ago
I won't ever hire a developer to work for free - I remember being in this boat when I started as a self-educated programmer. The employers that you attract by saying you will work for free in exchange for possible future employment and experience are usually not that great. The suggestion to contribute to an open-source project is, by far, the best advice. Open-source projects tend to be (but not all) meritocracies; you will learn far more by contributing to an open-source project because of the big-team culture...
- mattdeboard 16y ago
  Yeah I'm contributing to an open source project now. I've learned quite a bit already.
Homunculiheaded 16y ago
This advice is contrary to my personal experience. I live in a part of the US with a similarly craptastic market for programmers. In a recent job search, with very little formal experience as a software developer, I was turning down offers and taking my pick of interesting positions. From what I could gather this was almost entirely due to a github page with lots of code and a portfolio of interesting projects. However I originally did think the market looked like you describe until I realized this amazingly valuable insight: My resume was almost instantly rejected by any company where an HR person/recruiter got my application; Any company where an engineer was the first to read my resume I was eagerly contacted in less than a week. A related insight: I don't want to work for companies where engineers aren't doing the hiring. I also had no interest in moving and found, much to my surprise, that there are a lot great telecommuting options out there these days. edit: I just want to clarify the tone/message here a bit, I'm not saying "your doing it wrong" but that it's easy to be discourage by being rejected by companies that aren't worth your talent. There was definitely a point in my search where I felt completely doomed, but then I realized that I actually wasn't aiming high enough and was underselling myself.
- mattdeboard 16y ago
  Hey, thanks. I actually do include my Github page (though admittedly I don't do much interesting I'd say) on my resume, but I'd never considered the difference between an HR manager and an engineer seeing it. Great insight, thanks. (For the record, I wasn't giving advice :P )
- Luyt 16y ago
  Could I have a peek at your resume, please? (Your profile page doesn't list any website).
- bendmorris 16y ago
  My job search experience in a small western college town has pretty much mirrored yours. I'm a grad student so I'm only looking for part time work, and about twice a year I send out a few applications for development positions and almost always get as many offers as I applied to, from which I either take a better position or use as leverage at my current position. I'm not a CS student, but I think my resume (where I list tons of projects completed and programming languages I'm comfortable with) stands out against the CS student/new grad resumes they're probably swamped with. Occasionally I'm turned down for something like not remembering some syntax triviality, something that could easily be looked up; that's a sure sign that I wouldn't want to be working there.

bradleyland 16y ago

Don't sell yourself short either. If you can't get paying work doing what you're doing, take the startup advice and pivot.

mattdeboard 16y ago
If I had a single great idea, I would :P Best I've done is build a pinboard clone.
- blrgeek 16y ago
  There you go then! Just pick one, and start banging away :) http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+Dump+March+2011+Edition http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+Dump+March+2011+Edition http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+dump+February+2011+edition http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+dump+February+2011+editi... http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+dump+January+2011+edition http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+dump+January+2011+editio... http://jacquesmattheij.com/My+list+of+ideas+for+when+you+are+looking+for+inspiration http://jacquesmattheij.com/My+list+of+ideas+for+when+you+are...
- KishoreKumar 16y ago
  Same as above reply, but in my way. Google for: intitle:"Idea Dump" OR inurl:"idea+dump" site:jacquesmattheij.com

zievo 16y ago

"I'm a single parent" Respect.

mattdeboard 16y ago
Thanks. For bonus points, I'm a single dad raising a little girl with no mom in the picture. She likes science and math, and has a few ideas for a website or two :P
- jonkelly 16y ago
  Awesome. My daughter is 7 and also loves math - I can't wait to get her coding!
  - mattdeboard 16y ago
    I'm taking it slow with her so I don't totally put her off it. She's starting to ask what I'm doing while I'm at my computer, and she was shocked that I actually made a website that she could access and use from a different computer. "You made this? Wow!"
- mangoleaf 16y ago
  I'm a single father of an 11yo boy. He started saying things like "I want to make...." when he was 8ish and then I showed him a some html and got him his own domain to play with and call his own. But when I showed him view-source, it really took off. He went to some site that archived sites from 10 years ago of some games/toys/shows that he likes and viewsourced them all and started adding features to his site (actually plural now). After playing with that for awhile, he wanted to make "forums" and etc., and so needed some php. First with text files, then mysql. It has been fun watching him.
  - mattdeboard 16y ago
    That's really great. My daughter is more into art right now. I'm already working hard to dissuade her from an art degree.

wheels 16y ago

The presumption here is that doing open source work does not open doors to employment – in fact, that's quite far from the truth. If you're a contributor to a well known open source project there are lots of doors that are opened by being plugged into a network of other good developers that are often being pinged by people looking for work to be done. Prior to starting a startup virtually every job that I'd gotten had been either a result of or significantly influence by having done significant open source stuff and to this day, despite having been mostly inactive in open source stuff for about 4 years, I still regularly have people contact me asking if I'm available for contract work.

mattdeboard 16y ago
Oh, I don't dispute that whatsoever. I'm working on an open source project via a connection I made here on HackerNews. It's not an employment thing but I'm working with one of the (employed) team-leaders on the project. I know it looks great. But it would be nice programming to pay the bills in the meantime instead of whatever else I've got to do. (edit: I should say I left a career in another industry to pursue programming full-time, so I'm not complaining about having to do other things. I knew it was a gamble, but it was and still is worth it.)
codexon 16y ago
The presumption here is that doing open source work does not open doors to employment - in fact, that's quite far from the truth. It is in my experience that in large open source projects that anyone is impressed with, the people with commit privileges don't want more contributors. It is like Wikipedia where if you make an edit to their code or a replacement, they take personal offense to it and will fight you tooth and nail to get it ignored. Or in one case, just ignore me for over a year saying they will merge it and never do it. Or if they merge it, they don't give me credit.

Ixiaus 16y ago

I won't ever hire a developer to work for free - I remember being in this boat when I started as a self-educated programmer. The employers that you attract by saying you will work for free in exchange for possible future employment and experience are usually not that great. The suggestion to contribute to an open-source project is, by far, the best advice. Open-source projects tend to be (but not all) meritocracies; you will learn far more by contributing to an open-source project because of the big-team culture...

mattdeboard 16y ago
Yeah I'm contributing to an open source project now. I've learned quite a bit already.

Homunculiheaded 16y ago

This advice is contrary to my personal experience. I live in a part of the US with a similarly craptastic market for programmers. In a recent job search, with very little formal experience as a software developer, I was turning down offers and taking my pick of interesting positions. From what I could gather this was almost entirely due to a github page with lots of code and a portfolio of interesting projects. However I originally did think the market looked like you describe until I realized this amazingly valuable insight: My resume was almost instantly rejected by any company where an HR person/recruiter got my application; Any company where an engineer was the first to read my resume I was eagerly contacted in less than a week. A related insight: I don't want to work for companies where engineers aren't doing the hiring. I also had no interest in moving and found, much to my surprise, that there are a lot great telecommuting options out there these days. edit: I just want to clarify the tone/message here a bit, I'm not saying "your doing it wrong" but that it's easy to be discourage by being rejected by companies that aren't worth your talent. There was definitely a point in my search where I felt completely doomed, but then I realized that I actually wasn't aiming high enough and was underselling myself.

mattdeboard 16y ago
Hey, thanks. I actually do include my Github page (though admittedly I don't do much interesting I'd say) on my resume, but I'd never considered the difference between an HR manager and an engineer seeing it. Great insight, thanks. (For the record, I wasn't giving advice :P )
Luyt 16y ago
Could I have a peek at your resume, please? (Your profile page doesn't list any website).
bendmorris 16y ago
My job search experience in a small western college town has pretty much mirrored yours. I'm a grad student so I'm only looking for part time work, and about twice a year I send out a few applications for development positions and almost always get as many offers as I applied to, from which I either take a better position or use as leverage at my current position. I'm not a CS student, but I think my resume (where I list tons of projects completed and programming languages I'm comfortable with) stands out against the CS student/new grad resumes they're probably swamped with. Occasionally I'm turned down for something like not remembering some syntax triviality, something that could easily be looked up; that's a sure sign that I wouldn't want to be working there.