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Or their family donated enough money to an Ivy to have a building named after them.

virgilp 6y ago
That's not "succeding" though. I like to give Trump as an example: everyone loves to blast him for being an idiot. Is he a good president? No. Is he good at the game, but most people totally miss what his game is? I claim, yes. It's unfortunate that he managed to play the US election system for his own purposes, but that doesn't mean he's just incompetent at everything. E.g. he's a rather good populist - that may not be a quality you like, but at that particular game he's not at all bad.
- mewpmewp2 6y ago
  Which leads to the following: How do you measure if someone is a good president? What measurements do you use to claim Trump is not a good president? Surely it can't be approval ratings since you can't expect public to understand nuances behind the decisions and what the president actually has to be doing? It can't be just GDP because GDP might have been going up anyway? It can't be what the president is saying in public and how many of those facts are wrong since this doesn't mean what actual decisions the president is making.
  - thdrdt 6y ago
    Aren't there universal measurements for leaders/counties? For example the Bible has a lot of wisdom like: 'If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.' This was already written some 2000 years ago and has been proven true over time. So I would argue you could measure the amount of unity a leader tries to create.
    - bergstromm466 6y ago
      > So I would argue you could measure the amount of unity a leader tries to create. That’s a nice one. Yet do you think then Hitler might be a good leader? (not a joke). He united the white German population in a time of great economic disarray - in both Germany and Europe. Maybe we should measure unity and cooperation with other countries? Global solidarity
      - thdrdt 6y ago
        You have got a good point but I doubt it is true because a lot of Germans were against Hitler. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism
      - heavenlyblue 6y ago
        > He united the white German population in a time of great economic disarray Rather, he united the country because it was in an economic disarray :)
  - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
    Some combination of GINI, average life expectancy, number of bankruptcies, business closures, unemployment, changes in all-cause mortality, median household debt, disposable income, educational attainment, and so on. If you look at a basket of well-being measures as opposed to raw GDP it's hard to argue that Trump has done a good job. Of course Covid has had a big effect. But there were many policy options for handling that, and Trump - and his far-right equivalents in other countries - reliably picked some of the least effective ones.
    - splintercell 6y ago
      Never met a person on the right who considered GINI index as a good measure. Regarding bankruptcies, unemployment, household debt Etc, Obama's first term would show really low score on these things, presuming that's all he had, almost none of it was caused by the actions taken by him during his presidency.
    - iateanapple 6y ago
      > If you look at a basket of well-being measures as opposed to raw GDP it's hard to argue It is too soon to argue any of those measures. You can’t take a single moment in time in the middle of a crisis to judge.
  - michaelt 6y ago
    > What measurements do you use to claim Trump is not a good president? Number of his supporters arguing that objectively there's no such thing as a good president :-p
    - iateanapple 6y ago
      > Number of his supporters arguing that objectively there's no such thing as a good president :-p That’s probably a bad metric because his supporters love him. It’s the swing voters making those kinds of comments because they want to vote for him but he’s done some dodgy things.
vecter 6y ago
He said success, not wealth. Yes, obviously someone inheriting their parents' billion dollar business is wealthy, but I wouldn't consider them successful unless they've done something on their own.
- boffinism 6y ago
  No, but starting with wealth makes it much easier to succeed at other things.
- close04 6y ago
  I like to think of this example [0] when I have the feeling that I got to where I am all by myself, and forget how many and how much others have worked to "build my boat", and how much luck was involved at every step. [0] https://digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a-plate-pencilsword-toby-morris/ https://digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a...
  - bergstromm466 6y ago
    That was great!
  - abrookewood 6y ago
    That comic is brilliant.
- pydry 6y ago
  It's often not all that hard to disguise one as the other. I worked for a guy once who was drowning in family wealth and all he had to show for it was a failing business. After years of losses that almost nobody else would have been able (or willing) to sustain he made it into a moderate success. Outwardly, at face value, he's doing pretty well, until you count the decade of losses which nobody talks about. Another friend is a moderately renowned documentary maker. Again, facilitated by family wealth. Outwardly, the appearance is of being successful, which cost a fair chunk of family wealth. I think in both cases, family wealth drove something akin to an obsession to appear successful, which they largely achieved and nobody mentions the uncomfortable facts about how they got there in polite company.
haecceity 6y ago
Sounds like they're pretty good at the game.
koonsolo 6y ago
Passing on wealth to your children is part of the game. Or did you think the game ends after 1 generation?
- im3w1l 6y ago
  Now you are moving the goalposts from singular they are good at the game, to their family as a collective is good at the game. A statement perfectly compatible with that particular family member being an idiot.
  - fnord123 6y ago
    Idiot usually means someone who doesn't know basic facts or has trouble anticipating consequences for their actions. But I think part of GPs comment was to note that the concept of idiot needs to be readdressed. For example, if your hypothetical person has a family network (just another tool; but a v. good one!) that helps them, then they choose to either stick with their family or try to strike out on their own. We're already discussing the situation where they have chosen to leverage their family network.
    - Traster 6y ago
      I have never, ever, once in my life ever heard anyone say "Isn't that person smart, they managed to get their dad to give them a job"
      - fnord123 6y ago
        And maybe one could respect people who go their own way to get out of their family's shadow so they can be seen as making it on their own. But if that's not the game then both people are 'idiots' (in this thought experiment).
  - splintercell 6y ago
    Success is not guaranteed just because someone was sent to an Ivy League school by his rich parents. This is the blank slate fallacy where people believe (for political correctness reasons) that any kid had same chance of success if he was given the same opportunity as the success of kids.
koheripbal 6y ago
I think you just proved his point. Going to an ivy league school does not make you successful. There are many many unemployed useless Stanford, MIT, Harvard graduates in this world.
- brenden2 6y ago
  That's true, but a lot of people think the school you attend matters. For example, in the context of hiring, if you have 2 otherwise candidates but you can only choose one, most people would choose the person who went to Stanford over the guy who taught himself to code or attended a lesser respected school (in most cases). Some companies are stupid enough to only hire people from fancy schools. I think Google did something like this for a while, but thankfully they stopped. Thus, attending a fancy school is a big advantage if you've got the money or have another way to get in.
  - jcadam 6y ago
    Yep, I've seen more than a few job postings over the years stating some version of "Must hold a degree from a Top 10 school." Who would want to work with a bunch of elitist jerks, anyway?
- 77pt77 6y ago
  > There are many many unemployed useless Stanford, MIT, Harvard graduates in this world. Is this really true? All the statistics I've read suggest otherwise.
  - 1bc29b36f623ba8 6y ago
    Well, there is a lot of graduates from those universities to begin with, so it's only logical that there is a certain amount of useless graduates that end up unemployed. The same logic applies to the rest of humanity. The real question is whether those graduates are more likely to be useless and unemployed than people who did not graduate from the same universities.
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
It means that not only do they have a business idea (or stole one), but they have the network and (financial) risk buffer to develop it into a business. One thing to keep in mind is that the majority of businesses and products fail. Remember survivorship bias. For every successful Netflix there are a dozen failed movie streaming services. Anyone who has had a few weeks worth of software engineering can produce a Twitter clone, but none have been successful.
- Kye 6y ago
  Mastodon does okay. It's not as big as Twitter, but people who stick with it are happy with what they have. All it did was flip the model: interconnected, community-funded instances instead of one big, expensive to run silo.

That's not "succeding" though. I like to give Trump as an example: everyone loves to blast him for being an idiot. Is he a good president? No. Is he good at the game, but most people totally miss what his game is? I claim, yes. It's unfortunate that he managed to play the US election system for his own purposes, but that doesn't mean he's just incompetent at everything. E.g. he's a rather good populist - that may not be a quality you like, but at that particular game he's not at all bad.

mewpmewp2 6y ago
Which leads to the following: How do you measure if someone is a good president? What measurements do you use to claim Trump is not a good president? Surely it can't be approval ratings since you can't expect public to understand nuances behind the decisions and what the president actually has to be doing? It can't be just GDP because GDP might have been going up anyway? It can't be what the president is saying in public and how many of those facts are wrong since this doesn't mean what actual decisions the president is making.
- thdrdt 6y ago
  Aren't there universal measurements for leaders/counties? For example the Bible has a lot of wisdom like: 'If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.' This was already written some 2000 years ago and has been proven true over time. So I would argue you could measure the amount of unity a leader tries to create.
  - bergstromm466 6y ago
    > So I would argue you could measure the amount of unity a leader tries to create. That’s a nice one. Yet do you think then Hitler might be a good leader? (not a joke). He united the white German population in a time of great economic disarray - in both Germany and Europe. Maybe we should measure unity and cooperation with other countries? Global solidarity
    - thdrdt 6y ago
      You have got a good point but I doubt it is true because a lot of Germans were against Hitler. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism
    - heavenlyblue 6y ago
      > He united the white German population in a time of great economic disarray Rather, he united the country because it was in an economic disarray :)
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  Some combination of GINI, average life expectancy, number of bankruptcies, business closures, unemployment, changes in all-cause mortality, median household debt, disposable income, educational attainment, and so on. If you look at a basket of well-being measures as opposed to raw GDP it's hard to argue that Trump has done a good job. Of course Covid has had a big effect. But there were many policy options for handling that, and Trump - and his far-right equivalents in other countries - reliably picked some of the least effective ones.
  - splintercell 6y ago
    Never met a person on the right who considered GINI index as a good measure. Regarding bankruptcies, unemployment, household debt Etc, Obama's first term would show really low score on these things, presuming that's all he had, almost none of it was caused by the actions taken by him during his presidency.
  - iateanapple 6y ago
    > If you look at a basket of well-being measures as opposed to raw GDP it's hard to argue It is too soon to argue any of those measures. You can’t take a single moment in time in the middle of a crisis to judge.
- michaelt 6y ago
  > What measurements do you use to claim Trump is not a good president? Number of his supporters arguing that objectively there's no such thing as a good president :-p
  - iateanapple 6y ago
    > Number of his supporters arguing that objectively there's no such thing as a good president :-p That’s probably a bad metric because his supporters love him. It’s the swing voters making those kinds of comments because they want to vote for him but he’s done some dodgy things.

vecter 6y ago

He said success, not wealth. Yes, obviously someone inheriting their parents' billion dollar business is wealthy, but I wouldn't consider them successful unless they've done something on their own.

boffinism 6y ago
No, but starting with wealth makes it much easier to succeed at other things.
close04 6y ago
I like to think of this example [0] when I have the feeling that I got to where I am all by myself, and forget how many and how much others have worked to "build my boat", and how much luck was involved at every step. [0] https://digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a-plate-pencilsword-toby-morris/ https://digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a...
- bergstromm466 6y ago
  That was great!
- abrookewood 6y ago
  That comic is brilliant.
pydry 6y ago
It's often not all that hard to disguise one as the other. I worked for a guy once who was drowning in family wealth and all he had to show for it was a failing business. After years of losses that almost nobody else would have been able (or willing) to sustain he made it into a moderate success. Outwardly, at face value, he's doing pretty well, until you count the decade of losses which nobody talks about. Another friend is a moderately renowned documentary maker. Again, facilitated by family wealth. Outwardly, the appearance is of being successful, which cost a fair chunk of family wealth. I think in both cases, family wealth drove something akin to an obsession to appear successful, which they largely achieved and nobody mentions the uncomfortable facts about how they got there in polite company.

haecceity 6y ago

Sounds like they're pretty good at the game.

koonsolo 6y ago

Passing on wealth to your children is part of the game. Or did you think the game ends after 1 generation?

im3w1l 6y ago
Now you are moving the goalposts from singular they are good at the game, to their family as a collective is good at the game. A statement perfectly compatible with that particular family member being an idiot.
- fnord123 6y ago
  Idiot usually means someone who doesn't know basic facts or has trouble anticipating consequences for their actions. But I think part of GPs comment was to note that the concept of idiot needs to be readdressed. For example, if your hypothetical person has a family network (just another tool; but a v. good one!) that helps them, then they choose to either stick with their family or try to strike out on their own. We're already discussing the situation where they have chosen to leverage their family network.
  - Traster 6y ago
    I have never, ever, once in my life ever heard anyone say "Isn't that person smart, they managed to get their dad to give them a job"
    - fnord123 6y ago
      And maybe one could respect people who go their own way to get out of their family's shadow so they can be seen as making it on their own. But if that's not the game then both people are 'idiots' (in this thought experiment).
- splintercell 6y ago
  Success is not guaranteed just because someone was sent to an Ivy League school by his rich parents. This is the blank slate fallacy where people believe (for political correctness reasons) that any kid had same chance of success if he was given the same opportunity as the success of kids.

koheripbal 6y ago

I think you just proved his point. Going to an ivy league school does not make you successful. There are many many unemployed useless Stanford, MIT, Harvard graduates in this world.

brenden2 6y ago
That's true, but a lot of people think the school you attend matters. For example, in the context of hiring, if you have 2 otherwise candidates but you can only choose one, most people would choose the person who went to Stanford over the guy who taught himself to code or attended a lesser respected school (in most cases). Some companies are stupid enough to only hire people from fancy schools. I think Google did something like this for a while, but thankfully they stopped. Thus, attending a fancy school is a big advantage if you've got the money or have another way to get in.
- jcadam 6y ago
  Yep, I've seen more than a few job postings over the years stating some version of "Must hold a degree from a Top 10 school." Who would want to work with a bunch of elitist jerks, anyway?
77pt77 6y ago
> There are many many unemployed useless Stanford, MIT, Harvard graduates in this world. Is this really true? All the statistics I've read suggest otherwise.
- 1bc29b36f623ba8 6y ago
  Well, there is a lot of graduates from those universities to begin with, so it's only logical that there is a certain amount of useless graduates that end up unemployed. The same logic applies to the rest of humanity. The real question is whether those graduates are more likely to be useless and unemployed than people who did not graduate from the same universities.

Cthulhu_ 6y ago

It means that not only do they have a business idea (or stole one), but they have the network and (financial) risk buffer to develop it into a business. One thing to keep in mind is that the majority of businesses and products fail. Remember survivorship bias. For every successful Netflix there are a dozen failed movie streaming services. Anyone who has had a few weeks worth of software engineering can produce a Twitter clone, but none have been successful.

Kye 6y ago
Mastodon does okay. It's not as big as Twitter, but people who stick with it are happy with what they have. All it did was flip the model: interconnected, community-funded instances instead of one big, expensive to run silo.