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> The primary content no user wants to see any every user agent would filter out is ads "no user"? Nope. People buy magazines, that are 90% ads. Subscribe to n

> The primary content no user wants to see any every user agent would filter out is ads "no user"? Nope. People buy magazines, that are 90% ads. Subscribe to newsletters. Hunt for coupons. Watch home shopping channels. Etc, etc. There's large part of population that wants to see ads. Scammy and bad ads? No. Good and relevant ads? A LOT of people do want them. Even tech-folks, who claim that ads are worst thing for humanity. Don't you want to learn about sale for new tech gadgets? Discounts for AWS? Good rent deals?

K0SM0S 6y ago
Honestly a truly well-made ad targeting on me, something that really ticked all the right boxes... gosh I'd spend 3-4× more, easily. Because ordinarily I just don't lose time on shopping websites, but I'm kinda of a spender when I do find things that I like. And I'm a sucker for good deals, I'm a patient prey hunter, I can wait months in ambush for the right deal. Anecdotally of course, as one of those tech-folks who's got nothing against good and relevant ads.
- microcolonel 6y ago
  I guess I just don't buy enough things to want to see any ads at all. I don't have any particular issue selecting products either. A well targeted ad doesn't need to serve you well, it just needs to convince you to buy; I have a lot of faith in myself and I'd say those are often the same thing, but experiences may differ.
- save_ferris 6y ago
  > Anecdotally of course, as one of those tech-folks who's got nothing against good and relevant ads. Be careful what you wish for. This TED talk[0] on persuasion architectures brings up some interesting moral arguments against this idea. If we generally accept that ad conversion is a metric of an ad's success, how do we handle the situation where people that are susceptible to addictive behaviors like gambling and compulsive shopping are exposed to ads that exploit their condition? Data-driven advertising systems are built particularly well to find and exploit these kinds of people. We already see this a lot in the scam call/email world. Once you fall for one, the amount of inbound traffic you receive from scammers increases dramatically. 0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFTWM7HV2UI&t=872s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFTWM7HV2UI&t=872s
  - Izkata 6y ago
    > how do we handle the situation where people that are susceptible to addictive behaviors like gambling and compulsive shopping are exposed to ads that exploit their condition? Ads like that used to be common. By your description, it sounds like they died out on their own.
    - save_ferris 6y ago
      How? Data-driven ad systems are built specifically to target people who have a high probability of conversion. The perfect person for such a system is one that would constantly (i.e. impulsively) buy or convert.
- taurath 6y ago
  The “ads just aren’t good enough yet” poster while right doesn’t really take into account the terrifying things companies would ask to know about you in order to properly target those ads
kelnos 6y ago
> Don't you want to learn about sale for new tech gadgets? Discounts for AWS? Good rent deals? No, not at all. Ads don't just inform about deals, they also incite you to buy. I don't want to buy just because some random company got the chance to put some psychological manipulation in front of my eyeballs. If I want or need something, I will specifically seek it out. If I don't specifically seek it out, then I probably don't really need it. If the price (heh) of that is that I miss out on some better deals for stuff that I would otherwise seek out, I'm fully happy eating that cost.
- pixl97 6y ago
  >I don't want to buy just because some random company got the chance to put some psychological manipulation in front of my eyeballs Lots of people say this online, I just don't believe them. Visual psychological manipulation works well enough on most people.
- ccktlmazeltov 6y ago
  That makes no sense to me, I bought a lot of cool stuff just because I saw an ads on instagram :|
- josho 6y ago
  > If I want or need something, I will specifically seek it out Sometimes we don't know that we have a problem that is easily solvable. As an example, I had no idea that there was an industry to reduce aws spending. One day a marketer made it past my filters and made me aware of an industry that I benefit from today. Just one example of many where marketing is win-win. On the other hand I agree that there is too much psychological manipulation, unfortunately it exists because it works. Maybe this is where we need to disrupt the industry through a different approach. Just brainstorming, what if we regulated advertising to prohibit emotional/manipulative messages and rely instead on advertising facts?
- dannyw 6y ago
  I purposefully read a site called OzBargain, which is basically a compilation of ads. Sometimes I buy stuff I don’t need. Nonetheless, I like OzBargain.
latexr 6y ago
> Don't you want to learn about sale for new tech gadgets? Discounts for AWS? Good rent deals? No. I want less intrusions on my senses, not more. I buy few things, and ads are irrelevant for the central ones: groceries and utilities are dependent on my place of residence. If given the choice, I’d welcome with open arms the chance to never see an ad again anywhere, including offline. I’ve never seen an ad with a deal as good as that one, and I doubt I ever will.
birdyrooster 6y ago
Marketing is typically about getting to the customer before the customer does any homework. The more informed the customer is, the less conversions the marketing heavy company will get. This is because they spend their budget on marketing (thus you seeing their ad as opposed to the competition). That means they don’t have the same resources dedicated to their product. Sure at some scale, marketing becomes a requirement to build your brand for many other purposes and I will also concede that in some cases, like with services that hinge on network effect, marketing is required for the product to even become viable. But most things are not social networks and we would be better served to learn of the product in context with its competition in a less biased setting.
matheusmoreira 6y ago
> Don't you want to learn about sale for new tech gadgets? Discounts for AWS? Good rent deals? Sure. The thing is: when people are interested in something, they look for it. When I want to buy some games, I open my PS4's store. Any advertising I get there is absolutely fine because I asked for it. I told the software to show me the stuff that's available for me to buy. The problem is when I open a link to some web page and 80% of my phone's screen turns into advertising noise I didn't ask for and couldn't care less about. I make it a point to delete this noise.
ThrustVectoring 6y ago
There's a fundamental mismatch between how consumers value ads shown to them and how advertising platforms value the ads. Suppose there is a $100 product that produces $110 worth of value for a specific person and costs $50 to produce and deliver to them. To use economics terms, there's a $10 consumer surplus here, and a $50 producer surplus. The consumer willingness to see the ad is proportional to the consumer surplus, while the producer's willingness to pay for ad placement is proportional to producer surplus. This is a fundamental divergence in interests; because the ad networks are paid by producers, they'll serve the ads that tend to make ad buyers the most money, not the ads that best enrich the viewers' lives.

K0SM0S 6y ago

Honestly a truly well-made ad targeting on me, something that really ticked all the right boxes... gosh I'd spend 3-4× more, easily. Because ordinarily I just don't lose time on shopping websites, but I'm kinda of a spender when I do find things that I like. And I'm a sucker for good deals, I'm a patient prey hunter, I can wait months in ambush for the right deal. Anecdotally of course, as one of those tech-folks who's got nothing against good and relevant ads.

microcolonel 6y ago
I guess I just don't buy enough things to want to see any ads at all. I don't have any particular issue selecting products either. A well targeted ad doesn't need to serve you well, it just needs to convince you to buy; I have a lot of faith in myself and I'd say those are often the same thing, but experiences may differ.
save_ferris 6y ago
> Anecdotally of course, as one of those tech-folks who's got nothing against good and relevant ads. Be careful what you wish for. This TED talk[0] on persuasion architectures brings up some interesting moral arguments against this idea. If we generally accept that ad conversion is a metric of an ad's success, how do we handle the situation where people that are susceptible to addictive behaviors like gambling and compulsive shopping are exposed to ads that exploit their condition? Data-driven advertising systems are built particularly well to find and exploit these kinds of people. We already see this a lot in the scam call/email world. Once you fall for one, the amount of inbound traffic you receive from scammers increases dramatically. 0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFTWM7HV2UI&t=872s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFTWM7HV2UI&t=872s
- Izkata 6y ago
  > how do we handle the situation where people that are susceptible to addictive behaviors like gambling and compulsive shopping are exposed to ads that exploit their condition? Ads like that used to be common. By your description, it sounds like they died out on their own.
  - save_ferris 6y ago
    How? Data-driven ad systems are built specifically to target people who have a high probability of conversion. The perfect person for such a system is one that would constantly (i.e. impulsively) buy or convert.
taurath 6y ago
The “ads just aren’t good enough yet” poster while right doesn’t really take into account the terrifying things companies would ask to know about you in order to properly target those ads

kelnos 6y ago

> Don't you want to learn about sale for new tech gadgets? Discounts for AWS? Good rent deals? No, not at all. Ads don't just inform about deals, they also incite you to buy. I don't want to buy just because some random company got the chance to put some psychological manipulation in front of my eyeballs. If I want or need something, I will specifically seek it out. If I don't specifically seek it out, then I probably don't really need it. If the price (heh) of that is that I miss out on some better deals for stuff that I would otherwise seek out, I'm fully happy eating that cost.

pixl97 6y ago
>I don't want to buy just because some random company got the chance to put some psychological manipulation in front of my eyeballs Lots of people say this online, I just don't believe them. Visual psychological manipulation works well enough on most people.
ccktlmazeltov 6y ago
That makes no sense to me, I bought a lot of cool stuff just because I saw an ads on instagram :|
josho 6y ago
> If I want or need something, I will specifically seek it out Sometimes we don't know that we have a problem that is easily solvable. As an example, I had no idea that there was an industry to reduce aws spending. One day a marketer made it past my filters and made me aware of an industry that I benefit from today. Just one example of many where marketing is win-win. On the other hand I agree that there is too much psychological manipulation, unfortunately it exists because it works. Maybe this is where we need to disrupt the industry through a different approach. Just brainstorming, what if we regulated advertising to prohibit emotional/manipulative messages and rely instead on advertising facts?
dannyw 6y ago
I purposefully read a site called OzBargain, which is basically a compilation of ads. Sometimes I buy stuff I don’t need. Nonetheless, I like OzBargain.

latexr 6y ago

> Don't you want to learn about sale for new tech gadgets? Discounts for AWS? Good rent deals? No. I want less intrusions on my senses, not more. I buy few things, and ads are irrelevant for the central ones: groceries and utilities are dependent on my place of residence. If given the choice, I’d welcome with open arms the chance to never see an ad again anywhere, including offline. I’ve never seen an ad with a deal as good as that one, and I doubt I ever will.

birdyrooster 6y ago

Marketing is typically about getting to the customer before the customer does any homework. The more informed the customer is, the less conversions the marketing heavy company will get. This is because they spend their budget on marketing (thus you seeing their ad as opposed to the competition). That means they don’t have the same resources dedicated to their product. Sure at some scale, marketing becomes a requirement to build your brand for many other purposes and I will also concede that in some cases, like with services that hinge on network effect, marketing is required for the product to even become viable. But most things are not social networks and we would be better served to learn of the product in context with its competition in a less biased setting.

matheusmoreira 6y ago

> Don't you want to learn about sale for new tech gadgets? Discounts for AWS? Good rent deals? Sure. The thing is: when people are interested in something, they look for it. When I want to buy some games, I open my PS4's store. Any advertising I get there is absolutely fine because I asked for it. I told the software to show me the stuff that's available for me to buy. The problem is when I open a link to some web page and 80% of my phone's screen turns into advertising noise I didn't ask for and couldn't care less about. I make it a point to delete this noise.

ThrustVectoring 6y ago

There's a fundamental mismatch between how consumers value ads shown to them and how advertising platforms value the ads. Suppose there is a $100 product that produces $110 worth of value for a specific person and costs $50 to produce and deliver to them. To use economics terms, there's a $10 consumer surplus here, and a $50 producer surplus. The consumer willingness to see the ad is proportional to the consumer surplus, while the producer's willingness to pay for ad placement is proportional to producer surplus. This is a fundamental divergence in interests; because the ad networks are paid by producers, they'll serve the ads that tend to make ad buyers the most money, not the ads that best enrich the viewers' lives.