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I appreciate that there’s probably a lot I don’t know or understand about the national security aspects of this but it seems wrong to not share as much informat

I appreciate that there’s probably a lot I don’t know or understand about the national security aspects of this but it seems wrong to not share as much information as possible with as many researchers as possible in order to help as many as people as possible. Protecting security interests is one thing but this press release specifically mentions protecting intellectual property and that seems kind of tone deaf. I also wish they would explain how treatment options are jeopardized, even at a high level: > The potential theft of this information jeopardizes the delivery of secure, effective, and efficient treatment options.

natechols 6y ago
I take it you've never worked in information security, because cleaning up after a mess like this is an enormous time suck and they will need to audit their data to make sure it hasn't been "adjusted". (From a national security perspective, I bet derailing a competitor's vaccine trials is at least as valuable as "stealing" data that was already going to become public in the near future.) That means spending time and money that would be better spent doing just about anything else, if it weren't for human nature.
caseysoftware 6y ago
First, it lists "affiliated with COVID-19-related research" not "exclusively COVID-19 research" so could be more than just the current research. More importantly, while data theft is bad, data tampering could be much worse. What happens to people's confidence, hope, and trust if a "remarkably effective" drug turns out to be a total dud or even dangerous because the underlying data was modified?
cat199 6y ago
> to not share as much information as possible with as many researchers as possible in order to help as many as people as possible. this presumes that the stolen information would be used 'to help as many people as possible'.. Also, 1st country with viable vaccine/treatment/etc will have a huge geopolitical bargaining chip & it will likely be used as such no matter the country of origin.
- GuB-42 6y ago
  > Also, 1st country with viable vaccine/treatment/etc will have a huge geopolitical bargaining chip & it will likely be used as such no matter the country of origin. Definitely, but thankfully, it is a positive sum game. First thing, you won't keep your bargaining chip for long. If a country manages to find a vaccine, others will follow soon enough. Besides independent research and reverse engineering efforts, it is foolish to think that the US doesn't have spies and hackers targeting China. So in order to use that "bargaining chip", the vaccine has to be at least as valuable as what you are asking for in exchange. So while it may cost a lot to the country that doesn't have the vaccine, if it took the deal, it means that the cost is less than not having a vaccine at all. In the end it will be used to help as many people as possible, because it is the only thing a vaccine can do. Unless someone wants a full-on war that is. But if major powers really wanted the worst, there is a pile of nukes that is ready to make the whole pandemic look like a joke.
  - OBLIQUE_PILLAR 6y ago
    it would be funny if Cuba finds a successful treatment protocol first.
    - nineparts 6y ago
      If Russia gave it to them via China which made it from research stolen from the USA, I wouldn't call it "funny." I would call it "saving half a face, just in case."
- cat199 6y ago
  to be clear, wasn't disagreeing, but pointing out some potential rationale why this could conceivably be viewed as a security matter vs open science matter
- jessaustin 6y ago
  ...huge geopolitical bargaining chip... Ummm, I'm not sure how to break it to you, but USA is already laughingstock of world due to our comically misguided reaction to the "pandemic". Everyone expected Trump to screw up (and he hasn't disappointed), but there isn't any person or institution in USA that hasn't totally whiffed on this. CDC mandated tests that didn't work, news media remained unconvinced until late in the game and now jump from one conspiracy theory to another, in-person elections were held as late as April 7, some states required that diseased patients be forced into nursing homes for the elderly, effective masks are still somehow difficult to acquire, Congress has passed numerous "bailout" laws representing trillions of dollars yet has somehow not been able to arrange healthcare for every citizen as most comparable nations have had for decades, our deaths have passed 100k and seem certain to pass 200k as well, etc. It's difficult not to see this "investigation" and especially this silly press release that purports to inform the public about it as just more of the same. Furious pretend activity with no view of long-term strategy or of benefit to anyone other than the bureaucrats who wrote the release.
tree3 6y ago
Anytime the CCP does something bad, there's always someone like you to downplay it in the comments...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- free_rms 6y ago
  And there's always 100 with extremely selective outrage. We're hacking them, they're hacking us, yawn. We hacked Angela Merkel's phone, even. This is normal low level stuff.
  - jorblumesea 6y ago
    I think the difference is that the West is engaging in surveillance and not sabotage. If the CCP was found to contaminate or corrupt data, that is a far step above Western norms. Also, the West mostly focuses on international relations and national security concerns, whereas the CCP also participates in economic sabotage and IP transfer. For example, it would be big news for the US to have been caught hacking Huawei, but, the CCP does this all the time to US companies.
    - free_rms 6y ago
      First off, the west's covert activities are not limited to benign surveillance. Second off.. aside from the total lack of evidence, why would the Chinese be interested in sabotage here? American discovery of a vaccine means they can rip it off, they're definitely not gonna be paying anyone for it. If we're selling it at exorbitant prices while they give it away practically for free to African countries, that's a huge win for them. Plus, there's the whole taking care of their people thing. Sabotage just gets in the way, nobody cares who invented it 'first'.
      - jorblumesea 6y ago
        > the west's covert activities are not limited to benign surveillance. Compared to the CCP, it's fairly benign. The example you gave, Merkel's phone, is a textbook example. Spy all you want, but we're not stealing IP or sabotaging power grids (to my knowledge). We're not interfering with other countries' covid response or possibly corrupting medical records. > why would the Chinese be interested in sabotage here? Presumably, because it gives China a geopolitical edge in the international sphere. Think about how damaging it would be to not only be the country where the virus started, but also not having a valid vaccine. By slowing down Western vaccine efforts and boosting their own, they can regain the upper hand and make China look strong. "Strong China" keeps those leaders in power, and they'll do whatever they can to project the feeling that they're in control and "better" than the West. Also, China is posturing itself to be a counterpoint to the West, but they need to show themselves as somehow a viable candidate for that. So a wide variety of reasons, but it's easy to see why they would do this.
jonnypotty 6y ago
Thank you. I wonder what's really going on here.

natechols 6y ago

I take it you've never worked in information security, because cleaning up after a mess like this is an enormous time suck and they will need to audit their data to make sure it hasn't been "adjusted". (From a national security perspective, I bet derailing a competitor's vaccine trials is at least as valuable as "stealing" data that was already going to become public in the near future.) That means spending time and money that would be better spent doing just about anything else, if it weren't for human nature.

caseysoftware 6y ago

First, it lists "affiliated with COVID-19-related research" not "exclusively COVID-19 research" so could be more than just the current research. More importantly, while data theft is bad, data tampering could be much worse. What happens to people's confidence, hope, and trust if a "remarkably effective" drug turns out to be a total dud or even dangerous because the underlying data was modified?

cat199 6y ago

> to not share as much information as possible with as many researchers as possible in order to help as many as people as possible. this presumes that the stolen information would be used 'to help as many people as possible'.. Also, 1st country with viable vaccine/treatment/etc will have a huge geopolitical bargaining chip & it will likely be used as such no matter the country of origin.

GuB-42 6y ago
> Also, 1st country with viable vaccine/treatment/etc will have a huge geopolitical bargaining chip & it will likely be used as such no matter the country of origin. Definitely, but thankfully, it is a positive sum game. First thing, you won't keep your bargaining chip for long. If a country manages to find a vaccine, others will follow soon enough. Besides independent research and reverse engineering efforts, it is foolish to think that the US doesn't have spies and hackers targeting China. So in order to use that "bargaining chip", the vaccine has to be at least as valuable as what you are asking for in exchange. So while it may cost a lot to the country that doesn't have the vaccine, if it took the deal, it means that the cost is less than not having a vaccine at all. In the end it will be used to help as many people as possible, because it is the only thing a vaccine can do. Unless someone wants a full-on war that is. But if major powers really wanted the worst, there is a pile of nukes that is ready to make the whole pandemic look like a joke.
- OBLIQUE_PILLAR 6y ago
  it would be funny if Cuba finds a successful treatment protocol first.
  - nineparts 6y ago
    If Russia gave it to them via China which made it from research stolen from the USA, I wouldn't call it "funny." I would call it "saving half a face, just in case."
cat199 6y ago
to be clear, wasn't disagreeing, but pointing out some potential rationale why this could conceivably be viewed as a security matter vs open science matter
jessaustin 6y ago
...huge geopolitical bargaining chip... Ummm, I'm not sure how to break it to you, but USA is already laughingstock of world due to our comically misguided reaction to the "pandemic". Everyone expected Trump to screw up (and he hasn't disappointed), but there isn't any person or institution in USA that hasn't totally whiffed on this. CDC mandated tests that didn't work, news media remained unconvinced until late in the game and now jump from one conspiracy theory to another, in-person elections were held as late as April 7, some states required that diseased patients be forced into nursing homes for the elderly, effective masks are still somehow difficult to acquire, Congress has passed numerous "bailout" laws representing trillions of dollars yet has somehow not been able to arrange healthcare for every citizen as most comparable nations have had for decades, our deaths have passed 100k and seem certain to pass 200k as well, etc. It's difficult not to see this "investigation" and especially this silly press release that purports to inform the public about it as just more of the same. Furious pretend activity with no view of long-term strategy or of benefit to anyone other than the bureaucrats who wrote the release.

tree3 6y ago

Anytime the CCP does something bad, there's always someone like you to downplay it in the comments...

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
free_rms 6y ago
And there's always 100 with extremely selective outrage. We're hacking them, they're hacking us, yawn. We hacked Angela Merkel's phone, even. This is normal low level stuff.
- jorblumesea 6y ago
  I think the difference is that the West is engaging in surveillance and not sabotage. If the CCP was found to contaminate or corrupt data, that is a far step above Western norms. Also, the West mostly focuses on international relations and national security concerns, whereas the CCP also participates in economic sabotage and IP transfer. For example, it would be big news for the US to have been caught hacking Huawei, but, the CCP does this all the time to US companies.
  - free_rms 6y ago
    First off, the west's covert activities are not limited to benign surveillance. Second off.. aside from the total lack of evidence, why would the Chinese be interested in sabotage here? American discovery of a vaccine means they can rip it off, they're definitely not gonna be paying anyone for it. If we're selling it at exorbitant prices while they give it away practically for free to African countries, that's a huge win for them. Plus, there's the whole taking care of their people thing. Sabotage just gets in the way, nobody cares who invented it 'first'.
    - jorblumesea 6y ago
      > the west's covert activities are not limited to benign surveillance. Compared to the CCP, it's fairly benign. The example you gave, Merkel's phone, is a textbook example. Spy all you want, but we're not stealing IP or sabotaging power grids (to my knowledge). We're not interfering with other countries' covid response or possibly corrupting medical records. > why would the Chinese be interested in sabotage here? Presumably, because it gives China a geopolitical edge in the international sphere. Think about how damaging it would be to not only be the country where the virus started, but also not having a valid vaccine. By slowing down Western vaccine efforts and boosting their own, they can regain the upper hand and make China look strong. "Strong China" keeps those leaders in power, and they'll do whatever they can to project the feeling that they're in control and "better" than the West. Also, China is posturing itself to be a counterpoint to the West, but they need to show themselves as somehow a viable candidate for that. So a wide variety of reasons, but it's easy to see why they would do this.

jonnypotty 6y ago

Thank you. I wonder what's really going on here.