5 ms·

Sweden also has a larger immigrant population, many of whom have difficulty synthesizing Vitamin D. This factor should not be ignored. https://www.sciencedaily

Sweden also has a larger immigrant population, many of whom have difficulty synthesizing Vitamin D. This factor should not be ignored. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/05/200512134426.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/05/200512134426.h... https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m1101/rr-10 https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m1101/rr-10 > A risk factor that we want to highlight, however, is the low vitamin D levels found in the Swedish-Somali population. Vitamin D status is strongly related to low sun exposure and dark skin. In two different studies, the great majority of Swedish women of Somali origin had very low levels of S-25(OH)-D (< 25 nmol/l).[3,4] In Finland, Somali women required more than twice the amount of vitamin D in order to maintain recommended vitamin D status. [5] In addition, vitamin D deficiency was twice as common, regardless of gender, in immigrants from Africa compared with those from the Middle East.[6]

jressey 6y ago
That's a terribly poor argument. > With 39.26 deaths per 100,000, Sweden's mortality rate is not only higher than that of the U.S. (29.87 deaths per 100,000) but also exponentially higher than those of its neighbors Norway (4.42 per 100,000) and Finland (5.56 per 100,000) Every country has variables. The USA is handling things pathetically and still has a far lower rate than Sweden. Sweden goofed, that's a fact. *Edit: To the people giving me shit, I am pointing out that this commenter is using a strategy (I don't know if there's a formal name) to tangentially push an agenda. 1. Sweden did the right thing, and 2. Brown people are 'invading' Sweden. Personally the idea to sacrifice anybody's life for 'quality of life' or 'economy' is bullshit. Western governments all had the resources to help more than they did.
- dmix 6y ago
  > The USA is handling things pathetically What tangible things is the US not doing that others are? I don’t see much difference from here in Canada and people seem happy with how it’s going and our politicians. The main difference I see is the US has a higher obesity problem (30% US vs 20% Canada last I checked) and cities like Toronto are far less densely populated than NYC. Although Montreal is more dense and is having a worse time than Toronto. I wish we closed our border faster instead of spending a month attacking the US for doing it. The lack of masks and temperature screening seems to be common among all western countries. And something that seems like a obvious thing to me that could be changed. Our top doctor only started formally recommending masks last week.
- danharaj 6y ago
  But why pass up the opportunity to blame it on brown immigrants?
  - guscost 6y ago
    You're dismissing a serious health problem that disproportionally affects "brown immigrants", yet somehow I'm the racist? What the fuck?
    - danharaj 6y ago
      Blaming it on Vitamin D instead of socioeconomic policies of the ruling government is deflection and dismissal of more substantial class and race issues in responses to Covid, especially Sweden's which is broadly considered to be especially fucked up. "Nope, Sweden didn't mess up, it's just that they have more brown people and uhhh vitamin D". The hell prior do you have that you think such a conjecture makes more sense than "Sweden's COVID response not only sucked, it sucked especially for poor and marginalized people"?
      - guscost 6y ago
        https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.14.20101691v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.14.20101691v... > Areas with large proportions of Black/African American residents are at markedly higher risk that is not fully explained by characteristics of the environment and pre-existing conditions in the population. https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1548/rr-19 https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1548/rr-19 > There are now seven observational preprints (Abstracts and links below), based on COVID-19 positive patient data, indicating vitamin D deficiency and insufficiency, do indeed factor significantly in COVID-19 severity and mortality – for example, and thought provokingly, 10 to 20 times increases were seen in ICU and mortality in Asian studies.[5, 6] One further USA based study observes vitamin D may factor in COVID-19 infection.[7] Whilst differing in, size and exact approach, results of all preprints point clearly in the same direction. > Concerningly, vitamin D is often low in high-risk COVID-19-groups, such as, BAME including African Americans, elderly in care-homes, and the obese. Low vitamin D is also increasingly common in young.[8] Studies suggest low ‘D’ factors in Kawasaki disease[9, 10, 11] ; occurrences are increasingly being linked with COVID-19.[12,13]
- caseysoftware 6y ago
  The US has a spectrum of responses. San Francisco and the entire state of California shut down early and hard and therefore is doing pretty well both in absolute cases and per capita. New York shut down much later and actually sent covid-19 positive patients to nursing homes and New York City kept the subway open throughout, so they represent roughly 25-33% of the US's cases and deaths on its own. If you add adjacent states (New Jersey and Pennsylvania), it gets over 50%. Iowa never had to shut down because people aren't on top of each other. Dig into the reports and media that you're reading and watching and pay attention to how many are about New York versus everywhere else.. NY goofed.
  - tripletao 6y ago
    I agree that NY's response was bad; but how much of the difference between NY and CA is attributable to their response, and how much to pre-existing behavioral, genetic, environmental, or other factors? California (where I am) has lower population density than NYC, lower reliance on public transit even in SF or LA, an Asian population accustomed to wearing masks, fewer black people (who seem worse hit even adjusting for socioeconomic status, for a yet-unknown reason), warmer weather. How do you know what fraction of the difference in mortality is explained by those attributes vs. the government response? I say this not to excuse sending infectious patients into nursing homes, but with the goal of recognizing the tremendous uncertainty in almost all aspects of society's management of this disease. For example, Japan seems to be doing great, with no major lockdown and testing that's missing ~80% of cases (assuming 1% IFR, their 830 deaths imply 83k cases; but they've found only 17k). I strongly suspect that the Japanese response would have brought disaster in NYC or Lombardy, but I'm not sure anyone can confidently say why.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- DC-3 6y ago
  Sweden only messed up if you consider the variable to optimise to be the number of deaths. If you attempt to minimise sum decrease in quality of life as a consequence of the pandemic, then as callous as it may sound, the severe lockdown strategies come out of the equation quite poorly.
  - mnm1 6y ago
    Better optimize then for haircuts. How many haircuts can we trade for one death? Haircuts are so much more important that we should accept some number of deaths so that people can get their haircuts. What's this number to you? Callousness doesn't even begin to address the stupidity of this argument.
    - DuskStar 6y ago
      Depends on who's dying, but somewhere between 10k and 500k haircuts per death. (A teenager or child is "worth" more than someone in a nursing home - and if you go by life expectancy, it's more than 50x higher) So 10k @$20/haircut is $200k, near the top of the statistical value of a year of life. (And the life expectancy of someone entering a nursing home in the US is less than a year) 500k @$20/haircut is $10m, or at the top end of what federal agencies put as the value of a life in the US. At either conversion rate opening up for haircuts alone is remarkably silly.
    - caseysoftware 6y ago
      If you think the debate is about haircuts, I'd wager you have a work from home friendly job with direct deposit where you don't have to decide between "staying home & going broke" vs "working & feeding my family."
      - mnm1 6y ago
        I'd wager you don't get sarcasm. I'd also wager the people who are out of work aren't protesting with signs demanding haircuts. Then again, I might lose this second wager if these protestors are that stupid, dumber than even I previously thought.
  - 6y ago
- guscost 6y ago
  So your counter-argument is: "This factor should be ignored." Got it.
  - guscost 6y ago
    > *Edit: To the people giving me shit, I am pointing out that this commenter is using a strategy (I don't know if there's a formal name) to tangentially push an agenda. 1. Sweden did the right thing, and 2. Brown people are 'invading' Sweden. And this is libel. I’ll be seeking legal action if you don’t remove it (and if you are subject to US tort law). Also the term you’re looking for is “dog whistle”.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

jressey 6y ago

That's a terribly poor argument. > With 39.26 deaths per 100,000, Sweden's mortality rate is not only higher than that of the U.S. (29.87 deaths per 100,000) but also exponentially higher than those of its neighbors Norway (4.42 per 100,000) and Finland (5.56 per 100,000) Every country has variables. The USA is handling things pathetically and still has a far lower rate than Sweden. Sweden goofed, that's a fact. *Edit: To the people giving me shit, I am pointing out that this commenter is using a strategy (I don't know if there's a formal name) to tangentially push an agenda. 1. Sweden did the right thing, and 2. Brown people are 'invading' Sweden. Personally the idea to sacrifice anybody's life for 'quality of life' or 'economy' is bullshit. Western governments all had the resources to help more than they did.

dmix 6y ago
> The USA is handling things pathetically What tangible things is the US not doing that others are? I don’t see much difference from here in Canada and people seem happy with how it’s going and our politicians. The main difference I see is the US has a higher obesity problem (30% US vs 20% Canada last I checked) and cities like Toronto are far less densely populated than NYC. Although Montreal is more dense and is having a worse time than Toronto. I wish we closed our border faster instead of spending a month attacking the US for doing it. The lack of masks and temperature screening seems to be common among all western countries. And something that seems like a obvious thing to me that could be changed. Our top doctor only started formally recommending masks last week.
danharaj 6y ago
But why pass up the opportunity to blame it on brown immigrants?
- guscost 6y ago
  You're dismissing a serious health problem that disproportionally affects "brown immigrants", yet somehow I'm the racist? What the fuck?
  - danharaj 6y ago
    Blaming it on Vitamin D instead of socioeconomic policies of the ruling government is deflection and dismissal of more substantial class and race issues in responses to Covid, especially Sweden's which is broadly considered to be especially fucked up. "Nope, Sweden didn't mess up, it's just that they have more brown people and uhhh vitamin D". The hell prior do you have that you think such a conjecture makes more sense than "Sweden's COVID response not only sucked, it sucked especially for poor and marginalized people"?
    - guscost 6y ago
      https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.14.20101691v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.14.20101691v... > Areas with large proportions of Black/African American residents are at markedly higher risk that is not fully explained by characteristics of the environment and pre-existing conditions in the population. https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1548/rr-19 https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1548/rr-19 > There are now seven observational preprints (Abstracts and links below), based on COVID-19 positive patient data, indicating vitamin D deficiency and insufficiency, do indeed factor significantly in COVID-19 severity and mortality – for example, and thought provokingly, 10 to 20 times increases were seen in ICU and mortality in Asian studies.[5, 6] One further USA based study observes vitamin D may factor in COVID-19 infection.[7] Whilst differing in, size and exact approach, results of all preprints point clearly in the same direction. > Concerningly, vitamin D is often low in high-risk COVID-19-groups, such as, BAME including African Americans, elderly in care-homes, and the obese. Low vitamin D is also increasingly common in young.[8] Studies suggest low ‘D’ factors in Kawasaki disease[9, 10, 11] ; occurrences are increasingly being linked with COVID-19.[12,13]
caseysoftware 6y ago
The US has a spectrum of responses. San Francisco and the entire state of California shut down early and hard and therefore is doing pretty well both in absolute cases and per capita. New York shut down much later and actually sent covid-19 positive patients to nursing homes and New York City kept the subway open throughout, so they represent roughly 25-33% of the US's cases and deaths on its own. If you add adjacent states (New Jersey and Pennsylvania), it gets over 50%. Iowa never had to shut down because people aren't on top of each other. Dig into the reports and media that you're reading and watching and pay attention to how many are about New York versus everywhere else.. NY goofed.
- tripletao 6y ago
  I agree that NY's response was bad; but how much of the difference between NY and CA is attributable to their response, and how much to pre-existing behavioral, genetic, environmental, or other factors? California (where I am) has lower population density than NYC, lower reliance on public transit even in SF or LA, an Asian population accustomed to wearing masks, fewer black people (who seem worse hit even adjusting for socioeconomic status, for a yet-unknown reason), warmer weather. How do you know what fraction of the difference in mortality is explained by those attributes vs. the government response? I say this not to excuse sending infectious patients into nursing homes, but with the goal of recognizing the tremendous uncertainty in almost all aspects of society's management of this disease. For example, Japan seems to be doing great, with no major lockdown and testing that's missing ~80% of cases (assuming 1% IFR, their 830 deaths imply 83k cases; but they've found only 17k). I strongly suspect that the Japanese response would have brought disaster in NYC or Lombardy, but I'm not sure anyone can confidently say why.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
DC-3 6y ago
Sweden only messed up if you consider the variable to optimise to be the number of deaths. If you attempt to minimise sum decrease in quality of life as a consequence of the pandemic, then as callous as it may sound, the severe lockdown strategies come out of the equation quite poorly.
- mnm1 6y ago
  Better optimize then for haircuts. How many haircuts can we trade for one death? Haircuts are so much more important that we should accept some number of deaths so that people can get their haircuts. What's this number to you? Callousness doesn't even begin to address the stupidity of this argument.
  - DuskStar 6y ago
    Depends on who's dying, but somewhere between 10k and 500k haircuts per death. (A teenager or child is "worth" more than someone in a nursing home - and if you go by life expectancy, it's more than 50x higher) So 10k @$20/haircut is $200k, near the top of the statistical value of a year of life. (And the life expectancy of someone entering a nursing home in the US is less than a year) 500k @$20/haircut is $10m, or at the top end of what federal agencies put as the value of a life in the US. At either conversion rate opening up for haircuts alone is remarkably silly.
  - caseysoftware 6y ago
    If you think the debate is about haircuts, I'd wager you have a work from home friendly job with direct deposit where you don't have to decide between "staying home & going broke" vs "working & feeding my family."
    - mnm1 6y ago
      I'd wager you don't get sarcasm. I'd also wager the people who are out of work aren't protesting with signs demanding haircuts. Then again, I might lose this second wager if these protestors are that stupid, dumber than even I previously thought.
- 6y ago
guscost 6y ago
So your counter-argument is: "This factor should be ignored." Got it.
- guscost 6y ago
  > *Edit: To the people giving me shit, I am pointing out that this commenter is using a strategy (I don't know if there's a formal name) to tangentially push an agenda. 1. Sweden did the right thing, and 2. Brown people are 'invading' Sweden. And this is libel. I’ll be seeking legal action if you don’t remove it (and if you are subject to US tort law). Also the term you’re looking for is “dog whistle”.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]