4 ms·

Inclusivity, because you can then lay claim any dispute of facts of an article are instead a dispute that only exists because one side is bigoted, racist, or ot

Inclusivity, because you can then lay claim any dispute of facts of an article are instead a dispute that only exists because one side is bigoted, racist, or other such nonsense, and actually only disagrees because they do not accept the person posting the disputed fact. It is one of the main methods of cancel culture, by portraying any disagreement as based in identity differences there can be no functional discussion of the facts at hand

shadowgovt 6y ago
> bigoted, racist, or other such nonsense Can you clarify how one side or another in a discussion being bigoted or racist is nonsense?
- 0-_-0 6y ago
  The claim that it's bigoted or racist is nonsense, not being bigoted or racist.
  - shadowgovt 6y ago
    I don't think I follow. Can you provide an example of such a discussion that has happened?
    - 0-_-0 6y ago
      In general? I guess a good example would be transgender athletes. This is a controversial subject but a reasonable argument can be made that people who grew up with higher levels of testosterone have an unfair advantage over people who didn't. This concern is often dismissed as bigotry. This fits the above description that said "portraying any disagreement as based in identity differences there can be no functional discussion of the facts at hand"
      - shadowgovt 6y ago
        Thank you. I think that's a good example. For instance, I don't think I understand why people would want to ban those who were born identifying male from athletics because they have more testosterone than those born identifying female. Clearly, if the hormone levels are the issue, they should just sample the hormones of athletes at some point in their developmental process and ban anyone with too much testosterone from the womans' events, regardless of their gender identity. Identify as a woman but your testosterone levels are outside 1-sigma from average at 13? Sorry; doesn't matter if you were born a woman and have always thought of yourself as a woman, you're banned from Olympic Women's Pole Vault for life.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        vanderZwan 6y ago
        That is one completely valid but also slightly reductionist way to look at it. I think it is quite telling that even trans people are saying "yeah that topic is a bit too messy to untangle even for us, and we're the ones living this experience" - the issue is mainly that there are multiple valid requirements are inherently contradictory. I suspect the issue of transgenderism and athletics is a very good example of a Wicked Problem. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem
        0-_-0 6y ago
        Thank you for your attempt. But: > Clearly, if the hormone levels are the issue, they should just sample the hormones of athletes at some point in their developmental process Of course hormone levels are the issue, that's why we don't allow the use of human growth hormone and testosterone at the Olympics. It's called doping. And your proposed solution is completely impractical. In addition, your phrasing "if the hormone levels are the issue" seems to contain a veiled accusation of bigotry by suggesting that the actual issue is something else. > Identify as a woman but your testosterone levels are outside 1-sigma from average at 13? Sorry; Using 1-sigma in your example is a straw man. Normal female range is 15 to 70 ng/dL, normal male range is 300-1200. I suggest that if anyone has a testosterone level of 300 or more they should not be allowed to compete with women (but with that level of testosterone a human body would likely not develop as a female body in the first place). This should only apply to sports where testosterone is a direct advantage, e.g. there's no issue with a trans athlete competing in women's chess. Then again, I don't think they check for testosterone doping in chess competitions either. See how much more difficult it is to discuss this issue without resorting to accusations of bigotry? That itself is the problem: We can't even sort these kind of problems out as a society because the conversations are shut down before they could begin.
      - fzeroracer 6y ago
        This seems like a controversial subject because it's one frequently used without any actual scientific basis or rationale behind it. Hence, bigotry. A good example of such a situation is what happened to Caster Semenya who is biologically a woman and has had her testosterone levels used against her in attempt to discredit her and her performance, despite evidence contrary to the idea that it's testosterone that gives her an unfair advantage. And ultimately if we were to make that argument in the first place, then we should argue to limit all professional athletes (male and female) by testosterone level as it is not a consistent thing in either men or women rather than using it as a bludgeon against specifically transgender athletes.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
vanderZwan 6y ago
Can someone please break down that first sentence into multiple chunks. I genuinely have a hard time parsing it
- DC-3 6y ago
  The commenter above you believes that inclusivity standards will lead to a situation whereby one party could claim that certain genuinely controversial statements are actually beyond reasonable dispute, and that any such dispute could therefore only come about as a consequence of the disagreeing party not accepting the first party and/or their identity. That was surprisingly difficult. Frankly, it's a little strange to see such an illucid response being seemingly well received by HN.
  - textgel 6y ago
    Perhaps your difficulties with comprehension regarding the comment are more orthogonal than you might have led yourself to believe?
    - DC-3 6y ago
      Ironically, I don't know what you're saying here. > Perhaps your difficulties with comprehension regarding the comment are more orthogonal 'My difficulties with comprehension' constitute one metric. Orthogonality, in any way that I understand it, is a property of multiple such metrics.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

shadowgovt 6y ago

> bigoted, racist, or other such nonsense Can you clarify how one side or another in a discussion being bigoted or racist is nonsense?

0-_-0 6y ago
The claim that it's bigoted or racist is nonsense, not being bigoted or racist.
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  I don't think I follow. Can you provide an example of such a discussion that has happened?
  - 0-_-0 6y ago
    In general? I guess a good example would be transgender athletes. This is a controversial subject but a reasonable argument can be made that people who grew up with higher levels of testosterone have an unfair advantage over people who didn't. This concern is often dismissed as bigotry. This fits the above description that said "portraying any disagreement as based in identity differences there can be no functional discussion of the facts at hand"
    - shadowgovt 6y ago
      Thank you. I think that's a good example. For instance, I don't think I understand why people would want to ban those who were born identifying male from athletics because they have more testosterone than those born identifying female. Clearly, if the hormone levels are the issue, they should just sample the hormones of athletes at some point in their developmental process and ban anyone with too much testosterone from the womans' events, regardless of their gender identity. Identify as a woman but your testosterone levels are outside 1-sigma from average at 13? Sorry; doesn't matter if you were born a woman and have always thought of yourself as a woman, you're banned from Olympic Women's Pole Vault for life.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - vanderZwan 6y ago
        That is one completely valid but also slightly reductionist way to look at it. I think it is quite telling that even trans people are saying "yeah that topic is a bit too messy to untangle even for us, and we're the ones living this experience" - the issue is mainly that there are multiple valid requirements are inherently contradictory. I suspect the issue of transgenderism and athletics is a very good example of a Wicked Problem. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem
      - 0-_-0 6y ago
        Thank you for your attempt. But: > Clearly, if the hormone levels are the issue, they should just sample the hormones of athletes at some point in their developmental process Of course hormone levels are the issue, that's why we don't allow the use of human growth hormone and testosterone at the Olympics. It's called doping. And your proposed solution is completely impractical. In addition, your phrasing "if the hormone levels are the issue" seems to contain a veiled accusation of bigotry by suggesting that the actual issue is something else. > Identify as a woman but your testosterone levels are outside 1-sigma from average at 13? Sorry; Using 1-sigma in your example is a straw man. Normal female range is 15 to 70 ng/dL, normal male range is 300-1200. I suggest that if anyone has a testosterone level of 300 or more they should not be allowed to compete with women (but with that level of testosterone a human body would likely not develop as a female body in the first place). This should only apply to sports where testosterone is a direct advantage, e.g. there's no issue with a trans athlete competing in women's chess. Then again, I don't think they check for testosterone doping in chess competitions either. See how much more difficult it is to discuss this issue without resorting to accusations of bigotry? That itself is the problem: We can't even sort these kind of problems out as a society because the conversations are shut down before they could begin.
    - fzeroracer 6y ago
      This seems like a controversial subject because it's one frequently used without any actual scientific basis or rationale behind it. Hence, bigotry. A good example of such a situation is what happened to Caster Semenya who is biologically a woman and has had her testosterone levels used against her in attempt to discredit her and her performance, despite evidence contrary to the idea that it's testosterone that gives her an unfair advantage. And ultimately if we were to make that argument in the first place, then we should argue to limit all professional athletes (male and female) by testosterone level as it is not a consistent thing in either men or women rather than using it as a bludgeon against specifically transgender athletes.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]

vanderZwan 6y ago

Can someone please break down that first sentence into multiple chunks. I genuinely have a hard time parsing it

DC-3 6y ago
The commenter above you believes that inclusivity standards will lead to a situation whereby one party could claim that certain genuinely controversial statements are actually beyond reasonable dispute, and that any such dispute could therefore only come about as a consequence of the disagreeing party not accepting the first party and/or their identity. That was surprisingly difficult. Frankly, it's a little strange to see such an illucid response being seemingly well received by HN.
- textgel 6y ago
  Perhaps your difficulties with comprehension regarding the comment are more orthogonal than you might have led yourself to believe?
  - DC-3 6y ago
    Ironically, I don't know what you're saying here. > Perhaps your difficulties with comprehension regarding the comment are more orthogonal 'My difficulties with comprehension' constitute one metric. Orthogonality, in any way that I understand it, is a property of multiple such metrics.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]