4 ms·

I just don't use Javascript, for precisely this reason, ever. Nothing is worth the hassle - no fancy libs to do spacing, or anything. This is not progress - a

I just don't use Javascript, for precisely this reason, ever. Nothing is worth the hassle - no fancy libs to do spacing, or anything. This is not progress - as someone who has been professionally programming for 30+years, this state of affairs is atrocious. Its the equivalent of buying a 5-bedroom house for your kids to grow up in, only to go in to your kids room after 20 years and realise they are insane and should be committed.

gfxgirl 6y ago
It could be worse. I could be any other language / dev env. Trying getting a C or C++ open GL app to compile. the first hits are often 20+ years old NeHe tutorials. Every few years the libraries change, the dev environments change, and unless you're already an expert in them you have no idea what you need to change in the project to get them working again. I've run into this issue in every language. Nothing special about Javascript here.
- fit2rule 6y ago
  20 years later, I can still write an SDL app using just the SDL repo and my C compiler, with GL features and all the other bells and whistles that made me choose SDL in the first place. Its there, it builds, it runs. There isn't a single Javascript project I've done in the last 10 years that I can return to and run again - they've all been borked by the eco-system. I dread the idea of even opening a package.json file to see what's wrong...
  - Gibbon1 6y ago
    Couple of weeks ago had a customer cross compile a project written in C. That was last compiled 8 years ago. Compiled perfectly with gcc 9.2
  - ptx 6y ago
    Try targeting Windows Script Host (i.e. cscript.exe) for your next project - it's still there and mostly unchanged since Windows 98. :) The language supported is ECMAScript 3 with some minor COM-related quirks, but with a few utility functions it's not too bad for simple scripts.
- mrlala 6y ago
  >I've run into this issue in every language What about C#? One could argue it's pretty much the most bullet proof in terms of "just working" without any issues. Open up visual studio.. start a project.. run it. There really isn't anything to break like everything else you are discussing.
reificator 6y ago
> Its the equivalent of buying a 5-bedroom house for your kids to grow up in, only to go in to your kids room after 20 years and realise they are insane and should be committed. Yeah, if you lock your children up for 20 years, they will go insane no matter your intentions. Javascript is in this state for a number of reasons, but the fact of the matter is that it's here now and it's the lingua franca of browsers whether you like it or not. Maybe someone should have checked in on the kids every once in awhile so they didn't go insane, but it's too late to make more kids so love the ones you've got.
- fit2rule 6y ago
  Javascript devs ARE locked up in a shit-stained room covered in trash and detritus from previous occupants, and what's worse: they seem to crave that condition. The only justification for the disaster of modern JS 'development' is: job security. Make this argument and all I can do is agree with you: its a hellacious mess because otherwise, it wouldn't be so profitable.
  - michaelt 6y ago
    > The only justification for the disaster of modern JS 'development' is: job security. You could also explain it by a succession of well-intentioned-but-ultimately-unsuccessful attempts to reign in the insanity. At least for things like TypeScript and CoffeeScript. Combined with a culture of high speed delivery of business value, which doesn't value going back and removing the earlier failed attempts.
resu_nimda 6y ago
You could have a similar experience with virtually any other language/platform. “Someone who doesn’t know anything about C had a lot of trouble running some arbitrary C code they downloaded” wouldn’t raise a single eyebrow. Turns out your kids actually manage to use the tools they built just fine.
- Bad_CRC 6y ago
  Nope, I was able to lear C with 18 years, make cross-compilation from a PC to Dreamcast and some basic OpenGL stuff with 20 years (dial-up internet days, no youtube tutorials/platforms). I was able to pickup PHP-Mysql with 22 years or so, and move from that to Python/Django, even some Ruby in-between. Javascript? I just can't wrap my head around it. And I've tried.
  - robotnikman 6y ago
    The rapid pace of change present in the javascript ecosystem (and related developments like Typescript, coffeescript, etc) definitely make it hard to grasp. What might have been relevant years ago may no longer be relevant. If its hard for people who already have a background in programming and some basic computer knowledge to learn and pick up, I can't imagine how hard it would be for someone with no experience. The moment you go beyond making a simple website like you might learn in a beginner javascript class (using just basic javascript embedded in an HTML document) you become pretty lost
- stephenr 6y ago
  > You could have a similar experience with virtually any other language/platform. I'm sorry but I don't believe the issue is as bad in other environments. I've managed to pick up and make small patches/enhancements to projects written in Java, C, Ruby, Python - none of which I use regularly beyond the bare minimum I need (usually to patch some tool I'm relying on). "Modern" javascript is just a huge pile of WTF with "Are you fucking crazy?" frosting to my eye. > Turns out your kids actually manage to use the tools they built just fine. The kids have a "new tool" every week because the "old tool" from last week has some problem. That's hardly a sign of "just fine".

gfxgirl 6y ago

It could be worse. I could be any other language / dev env. Trying getting a C or C++ open GL app to compile. the first hits are often 20+ years old NeHe tutorials. Every few years the libraries change, the dev environments change, and unless you're already an expert in them you have no idea what you need to change in the project to get them working again. I've run into this issue in every language. Nothing special about Javascript here.

fit2rule 6y ago
20 years later, I can still write an SDL app using just the SDL repo and my C compiler, with GL features and all the other bells and whistles that made me choose SDL in the first place. Its there, it builds, it runs. There isn't a single Javascript project I've done in the last 10 years that I can return to and run again - they've all been borked by the eco-system. I dread the idea of even opening a package.json file to see what's wrong...
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  Couple of weeks ago had a customer cross compile a project written in C. That was last compiled 8 years ago. Compiled perfectly with gcc 9.2
- ptx 6y ago
  Try targeting Windows Script Host (i.e. cscript.exe) for your next project - it's still there and mostly unchanged since Windows 98. :) The language supported is ECMAScript 3 with some minor COM-related quirks, but with a few utility functions it's not too bad for simple scripts.
mrlala 6y ago
>I've run into this issue in every language What about C#? One could argue it's pretty much the most bullet proof in terms of "just working" without any issues. Open up visual studio.. start a project.. run it. There really isn't anything to break like everything else you are discussing.

reificator 6y ago

> Its the equivalent of buying a 5-bedroom house for your kids to grow up in, only to go in to your kids room after 20 years and realise they are insane and should be committed. Yeah, if you lock your children up for 20 years, they will go insane no matter your intentions. Javascript is in this state for a number of reasons, but the fact of the matter is that it's here now and it's the lingua franca of browsers whether you like it or not. Maybe someone should have checked in on the kids every once in awhile so they didn't go insane, but it's too late to make more kids so love the ones you've got.

fit2rule 6y ago
Javascript devs ARE locked up in a shit-stained room covered in trash and detritus from previous occupants, and what's worse: they seem to crave that condition. The only justification for the disaster of modern JS 'development' is: job security. Make this argument and all I can do is agree with you: its a hellacious mess because otherwise, it wouldn't be so profitable.
- michaelt 6y ago
  > The only justification for the disaster of modern JS 'development' is: job security. You could also explain it by a succession of well-intentioned-but-ultimately-unsuccessful attempts to reign in the insanity. At least for things like TypeScript and CoffeeScript. Combined with a culture of high speed delivery of business value, which doesn't value going back and removing the earlier failed attempts.

resu_nimda 6y ago

You could have a similar experience with virtually any other language/platform. “Someone who doesn’t know anything about C had a lot of trouble running some arbitrary C code they downloaded” wouldn’t raise a single eyebrow. Turns out your kids actually manage to use the tools they built just fine.

Bad_CRC 6y ago
Nope, I was able to lear C with 18 years, make cross-compilation from a PC to Dreamcast and some basic OpenGL stuff with 20 years (dial-up internet days, no youtube tutorials/platforms). I was able to pickup PHP-Mysql with 22 years or so, and move from that to Python/Django, even some Ruby in-between. Javascript? I just can't wrap my head around it. And I've tried.
- robotnikman 6y ago
  The rapid pace of change present in the javascript ecosystem (and related developments like Typescript, coffeescript, etc) definitely make it hard to grasp. What might have been relevant years ago may no longer be relevant. If its hard for people who already have a background in programming and some basic computer knowledge to learn and pick up, I can't imagine how hard it would be for someone with no experience. The moment you go beyond making a simple website like you might learn in a beginner javascript class (using just basic javascript embedded in an HTML document) you become pretty lost
stephenr 6y ago
> You could have a similar experience with virtually any other language/platform. I'm sorry but I don't believe the issue is as bad in other environments. I've managed to pick up and make small patches/enhancements to projects written in Java, C, Ruby, Python - none of which I use regularly beyond the bare minimum I need (usually to patch some tool I'm relying on). "Modern" javascript is just a huge pile of WTF with "Are you fucking crazy?" frosting to my eye. > Turns out your kids actually manage to use the tools they built just fine. The kids have a "new tool" every week because the "old tool" from last week has some problem. That's hardly a sign of "just fine".