6 ms·

What struck me reading this is all the issues SF and LA have had around housing and homelessness are not new — and, more importantly, the knee-jerk reaction of

What struck me reading this is all the issues SF and LA have had around housing and homelessness are not new — and, more importantly, the knee-jerk reaction of “cleaning the streets” (a nicer way to say incarceration) every-other city council has tried simply does not work. The real solution is potentially more expensive, less immediate, and less politically feasible. Build more housing: build more public housing, more market rate housing, more publicly-subsidized private housing, affordable housing, luxury housing, social housing, mixed-income housing — just build! But don’t stop there, the city should provide support not just to those currently living on skid row, but to private caretakers, nonprofits, churches, property developers, business owners, everyone in the area. The solution won’t be cheap by any measure, so why cut corners? Go all the way.

RobertRoberts 6y ago
More housing won't help if they don't _want_ housing. I lived on the streets for awhile and _many_ people did not want homes, they wanted comfort, food, happiness, forget their pain, booze, drugs, entertainment.... a house? Nope. Now what do you do with those people?
- peer2pay 6y ago
  I think thebradbrain is talking more about a longer timeframe here. Nobody is born with the goal to become homeless and therefore eliminating the factors that cause homelessness before the people actually end up on the street should be the focus.
  - 7373737373 6y ago
    The factors that cause homelessness are not only material, but psychological and social as well. A mentally ill or socially isolated or outcast person won't be necessarily less so just because they have a roof over their head. I once met a man who's only social contacts were other homeless people around him. He shared his food with them, although this might have not been reciprocated. This feeling of giving something was important to him, even though it seems one cannot be friends with other homeless people. Other than this, he had absolutely no one who cared about him. He got into psychotic episodes and had a criminal record. I met another man who once had it all, and then lost it, money, purpose, love, meaning. These people are utterly lost, forgotten, neglected at a spiritual, psychological and physical level. Drugs rob them of their agency. They were forced to see behind the memeplex that is society, with its values and ideals and virtues that only exist when one is privileged enough to live away from the chaos that is reality. They have personalities or had experiences that are not compatible with a civilized society, their human desires cannot be constrained by teachings of morality or even the abstract threat of state violence. They are extreme risk takers, or have sociopsychological differences/difficulties, different modes of thought, sometimes temporary, sometimes induced due to traumatizing life circumstances or drug use.
    - LyndsySimon 6y ago
      > the memeplex that is society This concept stands out to me. Is this phrasing something I’d not encountered before, and it looks like there’s a whole are of anthropology that I’ve somehow overlooked to this point. I have some reading to do :)
  - gridlockd 6y ago
    For some people the only way to live free is to become "homeless", which is really just a consequence of not living up to anyone else's standards.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  We don't really need to worry about those people. Let's just build enough housing for those who want housing. That at least shrinks the problem. Let's do what reasonably can be done and follow the 80/20 rule and take care of the majority of the problem that is relatively easily resolved, thereby freeing up more resources for the short list of really, really hard cases.
  - polalavik 6y ago
    But we do need to worry about those people when those people may be a large percentage of the people on the streets. These people are deep into the throws of mental illness, addiction, or both. What do you do to help people who don’t want to help themselves? It’s a very difficult problem and I don’t know if there is an easy solution that doesn’t infringe on people’s rights. You can’t make being homeless illegal and state conservatorship seems dystopian.
    - DoreenMichele 6y ago
      There is a clear connection between housing costs and rate of homelessness. https://streetlifesolutions.blogspot.com/2018/11/the-clear-connection-between-housing.html https://streetlifesolutions.blogspot.com/2018/11/the-clear-c... This country has an inadequate supply of housing nationwide. We have generally been under building housing for decades, then we act like our homeless population is just a bunch of "junkies and crazies." When I say "we don't need to worry about them," I mean the existence of people who are homeless by choice should not be an excuse to keep not building adequate housing and justify punishing those who do want housing on the excuse that "some of y'all losers don't even want housing." I spent nearly six years homeless. I've studied this problem space. I am actively developing information resources and best practices. "Build more housing -- especially stuff like Missing Middle Housing" is the short answer to a large part of this. Healthcare availability is another factor that makes a difference and help connecting to earned income that works for them in spite of handicaps and so forth. Earning money online is part of how I made progress on my issues and got myself back into housing.
    - thebradbain 6y ago
- thebradbain 6y ago
  I am by no means a sociological expert, but I think it is safe to assume a large majority of homeless do not want to be homeless; I’ll defer to those who have dedicated their lives to the fixing the issue of homelessness on how to remediate that special case, if it is indeed a significant concern.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
A secondary group are families temporarily homeless due to adverse life conditions. Those can be helped by providing a semi-temporary place to stay. I'm all for this. But the primary cause of homelessness is a mental health problem, largely brought on (but not entirely) by drug addiction[0]. Building housing may help, but individuals who are mentally well and want to live indoors can find housing, it doesn't have to be in SF or LA if cost is the issue. The infrastructure for supporting addicts and those with clinical and severe mental health issues is at odds with the State's position that virtually prevents anyone being from admitted to an institution without their direct consent. In California, it is very difficult to admit someone to a mental hospital involuntarily. A police officer may deliver a person to a mental hospital and that hospital has 72 hours to evaluate them. Once evaluated, the hospital has to either get a judge's order to admit them, or let them go. Given that the entire state has only 6,000 psychiatric hospital beds, vs. 150,000 homeless in the state, this is seldom done: "On or previous to the expiration of the 72 hours, the psychiatrist must assess the person to see if they still meet criteria for hospitalization. If so, the person may be offered a voluntary admission. If it is refused, then another hold for up to 14 days, the 5250 (WIC-5250), must be written to continue the involuntary confinement of the person. A Certification Review Hearing (W&I 5256) must occur within four days before a judge or hearing officer to determine whether probable cause exists to support the 5250. Alternatively, the person can demand a writ of habeas corpus to be filed for their release after they are certified for a 5250, and once filed, by law, the person must appear in front of a judge in two (2) days, which is two days sooner than the Certification Review Hearing." [0] https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-10-10/homelessness-is-a-mental-health-issue https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-10-10/homelessnes... [1] https://www.stimmel-law.com/en/articles/involuntary-commitment-conservatorships-and-guardianships https://www.stimmel-law.com/en/articles/involuntary-commitme...
- LyndsySimon 6y ago
  > The infrastructure for supporting addicts and those with clinical and severe mental health issues is at odds with the State's position that virtually prevents anyone being from admitted to an institution without their direct consent. IMO, this is a good thing. First, the idea of involuntary commitment is antithetical to the concept of individual rights. Even if you accept that there are times when it is necessary, granting that power to the state is to me unacceptable. This is a political stance, of course, and arguing politics isn’t what I want to do here so I’ll just leave it at that. Second, I have found that no amount of help will solve a mental health problem if the person themselves doesn’t want the problem to be solved. Speaking from personal experience on both sides of this issue - someone must want to change before whether or not they can do so without assistance is relevant. Providing assistance to people who do not want to change is at best a waste of resources and at worst enabling them to continue a self-destructive cycle that they would have otherwise been forced to change by circumstance. Because of the above, I strongly oppose legal mechanisms for involuntary commitment as a civil action.

RobertRoberts 6y ago

More housing won't help if they don't _want_ housing. I lived on the streets for awhile and _many_ people did not want homes, they wanted comfort, food, happiness, forget their pain, booze, drugs, entertainment.... a house? Nope. Now what do you do with those people?

peer2pay 6y ago
I think thebradbrain is talking more about a longer timeframe here. Nobody is born with the goal to become homeless and therefore eliminating the factors that cause homelessness before the people actually end up on the street should be the focus.
- 7373737373 6y ago
  The factors that cause homelessness are not only material, but psychological and social as well. A mentally ill or socially isolated or outcast person won't be necessarily less so just because they have a roof over their head. I once met a man who's only social contacts were other homeless people around him. He shared his food with them, although this might have not been reciprocated. This feeling of giving something was important to him, even though it seems one cannot be friends with other homeless people. Other than this, he had absolutely no one who cared about him. He got into psychotic episodes and had a criminal record. I met another man who once had it all, and then lost it, money, purpose, love, meaning. These people are utterly lost, forgotten, neglected at a spiritual, psychological and physical level. Drugs rob them of their agency. They were forced to see behind the memeplex that is society, with its values and ideals and virtues that only exist when one is privileged enough to live away from the chaos that is reality. They have personalities or had experiences that are not compatible with a civilized society, their human desires cannot be constrained by teachings of morality or even the abstract threat of state violence. They are extreme risk takers, or have sociopsychological differences/difficulties, different modes of thought, sometimes temporary, sometimes induced due to traumatizing life circumstances or drug use.
  - LyndsySimon 6y ago
    > the memeplex that is society This concept stands out to me. Is this phrasing something I’d not encountered before, and it looks like there’s a whole are of anthropology that I’ve somehow overlooked to this point. I have some reading to do :)
- gridlockd 6y ago
  For some people the only way to live free is to become "homeless", which is really just a consequence of not living up to anyone else's standards.
DoreenMichele 6y ago
We don't really need to worry about those people. Let's just build enough housing for those who want housing. That at least shrinks the problem. Let's do what reasonably can be done and follow the 80/20 rule and take care of the majority of the problem that is relatively easily resolved, thereby freeing up more resources for the short list of really, really hard cases.
- polalavik 6y ago
  But we do need to worry about those people when those people may be a large percentage of the people on the streets. These people are deep into the throws of mental illness, addiction, or both. What do you do to help people who don’t want to help themselves? It’s a very difficult problem and I don’t know if there is an easy solution that doesn’t infringe on people’s rights. You can’t make being homeless illegal and state conservatorship seems dystopian.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    There is a clear connection between housing costs and rate of homelessness. https://streetlifesolutions.blogspot.com/2018/11/the-clear-connection-between-housing.html https://streetlifesolutions.blogspot.com/2018/11/the-clear-c... This country has an inadequate supply of housing nationwide. We have generally been under building housing for decades, then we act like our homeless population is just a bunch of "junkies and crazies." When I say "we don't need to worry about them," I mean the existence of people who are homeless by choice should not be an excuse to keep not building adequate housing and justify punishing those who do want housing on the excuse that "some of y'all losers don't even want housing." I spent nearly six years homeless. I've studied this problem space. I am actively developing information resources and best practices. "Build more housing -- especially stuff like Missing Middle Housing" is the short answer to a large part of this. Healthcare availability is another factor that makes a difference and help connecting to earned income that works for them in spite of handicaps and so forth. Earning money online is part of how I made progress on my issues and got myself back into housing.
  - thebradbain 6y ago
thebradbain 6y ago
I am by no means a sociological expert, but I think it is safe to assume a large majority of homeless do not want to be homeless; I’ll defer to those who have dedicated their lives to the fixing the issue of homelessness on how to remediate that special case, if it is indeed a significant concern.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

11thEarlOfMar 6y ago

A secondary group are families temporarily homeless due to adverse life conditions. Those can be helped by providing a semi-temporary place to stay. I'm all for this. But the primary cause of homelessness is a mental health problem, largely brought on (but not entirely) by drug addiction[0]. Building housing may help, but individuals who are mentally well and want to live indoors can find housing, it doesn't have to be in SF or LA if cost is the issue. The infrastructure for supporting addicts and those with clinical and severe mental health issues is at odds with the State's position that virtually prevents anyone being from admitted to an institution without their direct consent. In California, it is very difficult to admit someone to a mental hospital involuntarily. A police officer may deliver a person to a mental hospital and that hospital has 72 hours to evaluate them. Once evaluated, the hospital has to either get a judge's order to admit them, or let them go. Given that the entire state has only 6,000 psychiatric hospital beds, vs. 150,000 homeless in the state, this is seldom done: "On or previous to the expiration of the 72 hours, the psychiatrist must assess the person to see if they still meet criteria for hospitalization. If so, the person may be offered a voluntary admission. If it is refused, then another hold for up to 14 days, the 5250 (WIC-5250), must be written to continue the involuntary confinement of the person. A Certification Review Hearing (W&I 5256) must occur within four days before a judge or hearing officer to determine whether probable cause exists to support the 5250. Alternatively, the person can demand a writ of habeas corpus to be filed for their release after they are certified for a 5250, and once filed, by law, the person must appear in front of a judge in two (2) days, which is two days sooner than the Certification Review Hearing." [0] https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-10-10/homelessness-is-a-mental-health-issue https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-10-10/homelessnes... [1] https://www.stimmel-law.com/en/articles/involuntary-commitment-conservatorships-and-guardianships https://www.stimmel-law.com/en/articles/involuntary-commitme...

LyndsySimon 6y ago
> The infrastructure for supporting addicts and those with clinical and severe mental health issues is at odds with the State's position that virtually prevents anyone being from admitted to an institution without their direct consent. IMO, this is a good thing. First, the idea of involuntary commitment is antithetical to the concept of individual rights. Even if you accept that there are times when it is necessary, granting that power to the state is to me unacceptable. This is a political stance, of course, and arguing politics isn’t what I want to do here so I’ll just leave it at that. Second, I have found that no amount of help will solve a mental health problem if the person themselves doesn’t want the problem to be solved. Speaking from personal experience on both sides of this issue - someone must want to change before whether or not they can do so without assistance is relevant. Providing assistance to people who do not want to change is at best a waste of resources and at worst enabling them to continue a self-destructive cycle that they would have otherwise been forced to change by circumstance. Because of the above, I strongly oppose legal mechanisms for involuntary commitment as a civil action.