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Keep in mind, this is the rhetoric of the CCP, and used to legitimize their continuing rule even after they've dropped all but the barest facade of actual commu

by ertian 6y ago

Keep in mind, this is the rhetoric of the CCP, and used to legitimize their continuing rule even after they've dropped all but the barest facade of actual communism. In the modern Chinese imagination, the Opium Wars loom large as a devastating humiliation to the entire Chinese civilization; but as I understand it, to the Empire itself it was mostly seen as an annoyance--and to many of it's subjects, it was a welcome blow to the 'foreign' Qing dynasty (who were Manchu, not Han). Both Opium Wars combined only led to a few thousand casualties; compare that to, say, the Taiping Rebellion, which was a contemporary event (1850s and 60s) and led to somewhere between 10 and 30 million dead overall, per Wikipedia. At some points, whole provinces were controlled by the Taiping. Compared to that, the Opium Wars just looked like an annoyance by some foreign pirates. It was only later, when it became clear how technologically behind China really was, and when nationalism surged after the fall of the Empire, that the Opium Wars began to seem hugely important. And after the Communists took over in 1949, they vastly inflated the significance in retrospect in order to drive the narrative that the CCP had rescued China. My wife is from China and came up through their educational system. She barely remembered the Taiping Rebellion, and had no idea what it had been about or how many people had died as a result. But she knew _individual artworks_ that had been stolen by the invaders from the Summer Palace. That's a bit crazy.

clairity 6y ago
yes, appreciate the added detail, but even if it were solely propaganda, enough of the populace latched onto the idea that the opium wars were humiliating to sway history away from western ideals. the fascinating part is the butterfly effect[0] in action. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect
blackrock 6y ago
This is a false historical perspective. You’re either purposely spreading a lie, or you’re being historically ignorant. And realize that this is the running excuse given by Western nations, in order to delegitimize China, and to cover up the Western nations’ own historical moral failings. After all, why bother to admit that you f‘ed up, when you can easily blame someone else? Easy, just blame China for their own stupidity and inferiority in losing the Opium Wars to the superior white people. After the Opium War 1, China was effectively a puppet government under the British. But, after the Opium War 2, it was completely a puppet government, under all the western countries (including the United States). Why? Because the Chinese authorities were under house arrest. The western countries stationed their military outside the imperial palace. Did you even know about this? The westerners, as kind as they were, gave the Chinese authorities a democratic choice. 1) Enforce our edicts and pay our ransom, or 2) We will kill all of you on the spot. Hah! So what choice do you really have? The sole purpose of the Western nations were to drug the Chinese population, in order to extract maximum profit. The Taiping Rebellion was the result of foreign control of China. The Chinese peasants were sick of being treated as human scum by the foreign white powers. Imagine black African slavery in the United States, but this time, the Chinese slaves actually revolted, in their attempt to throw out the white people. So in America, the whites enslaved the blacks for labor. While in China, the whites enslaved the Chinese, as drug addicts, in order to extract maximum profit from them. And not surprisingly, this bit of historical perspective is not taught or even discussed in any western textbook. Ahh.. let’s just brush our [westerners] bad behavior of the past, under the rugs. It happened a long time ago, let’s just forget about it, ok?
- ertian 6y ago
  > Easy, just blame China for their own stupidity and inferiority in losing the Opium Wars to the superior white people. I didn't say anything like that. It turned out that China was technologically backwards, but they also just didn't care that much about the Opium Wars. I...don't know how you got from what I said that I thought it was because of racial superiority. ...And then you then go on to suggest that with a bunch of traders, a couple gunships, and 10k troops, white people were able to enslave and subjugate (in secret!) the entire Chinese Empire, which was at the time the largest and richest empire on earth? Who has a warped perspective of the capabilities of white people? > After the Opium War 1, China was effectively a puppet government under the British. Citation very much needed. They allowed some British presence in Beijing for the very first time. That made the Empire a puppet? > Why? Because the Chinese authorities were under house arrest. The western countries stationed their military outside the imperial palace. Yeah, the Chinese were strong-armed into allowing foreign access to their markets. It was a bit of a shock. > The sole purpose of the Western nations were to drug the Chinese population, in order to extract maximum profit. At the peak of the British opium trade, something like 80% of opium in China was locally sourced. Western nations traded opium with China because it was the most valuable black-market commodity for which they had a supply. The Emperor refused to trade officially, so Westerners resorted to the black market. > The Taiping Rebellion was the result of foreign control of China. The Chinese peasants were sick of being treated as human scum by the foreign white powers. White people had access to a small handful of cities, on the Yangtze and Yellow rivers and on the coast. In those cities, they had zones where they effectively governed, but outside of that they had no real power. 99% of the Chinese population never saw a white person. The Taiping rebellion was related to Western presence, but it was absolutely not a reaction to abuse by white people. > Ahh.. let’s just brush our [westerners] bad behavior of the past, under the rugs. It happened a long time ago, let’s just forget about it, ok? Westerners did some shit in China. I mean, the Opium Wars were seriously morally bankrupt, they just weren't that significant from a contemporary Chinese perspective. I'm not trying to brush it under the rug, just to put it in perspective.

by ertian 6y ago

clairity 6y ago

yes, appreciate the added detail, but even if it were solely propaganda, enough of the populace latched onto the idea that the opium wars were humiliating to sway history away from western ideals. the fascinating part is the butterfly effect[0] in action. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

blackrock 6y ago

This is a false historical perspective. You’re either purposely spreading a lie, or you’re being historically ignorant. And realize that this is the running excuse given by Western nations, in order to delegitimize China, and to cover up the Western nations’ own historical moral failings. After all, why bother to admit that you f‘ed up, when you can easily blame someone else? Easy, just blame China for their own stupidity and inferiority in losing the Opium Wars to the superior white people. After the Opium War 1, China was effectively a puppet government under the British. But, after the Opium War 2, it was completely a puppet government, under all the western countries (including the United States). Why? Because the Chinese authorities were under house arrest. The western countries stationed their military outside the imperial palace. Did you even know about this? The westerners, as kind as they were, gave the Chinese authorities a democratic choice. 1) Enforce our edicts and pay our ransom, or 2) We will kill all of you on the spot. Hah! So what choice do you really have? The sole purpose of the Western nations were to drug the Chinese population, in order to extract maximum profit. The Taiping Rebellion was the result of foreign control of China. The Chinese peasants were sick of being treated as human scum by the foreign white powers. Imagine black African slavery in the United States, but this time, the Chinese slaves actually revolted, in their attempt to throw out the white people. So in America, the whites enslaved the blacks for labor. While in China, the whites enslaved the Chinese, as drug addicts, in order to extract maximum profit from them. And not surprisingly, this bit of historical perspective is not taught or even discussed in any western textbook. Ahh.. let’s just brush our [westerners] bad behavior of the past, under the rugs. It happened a long time ago, let’s just forget about it, ok?

ertian 6y ago
> Easy, just blame China for their own stupidity and inferiority in losing the Opium Wars to the superior white people. I didn't say anything like that. It turned out that China was technologically backwards, but they also just didn't care that much about the Opium Wars. I...don't know how you got from what I said that I thought it was because of racial superiority. ...And then you then go on to suggest that with a bunch of traders, a couple gunships, and 10k troops, white people were able to enslave and subjugate (in secret!) the entire Chinese Empire, which was at the time the largest and richest empire on earth? Who has a warped perspective of the capabilities of white people? > After the Opium War 1, China was effectively a puppet government under the British. Citation very much needed. They allowed some British presence in Beijing for the very first time. That made the Empire a puppet? > Why? Because the Chinese authorities were under house arrest. The western countries stationed their military outside the imperial palace. Yeah, the Chinese were strong-armed into allowing foreign access to their markets. It was a bit of a shock. > The sole purpose of the Western nations were to drug the Chinese population, in order to extract maximum profit. At the peak of the British opium trade, something like 80% of opium in China was locally sourced. Western nations traded opium with China because it was the most valuable black-market commodity for which they had a supply. The Emperor refused to trade officially, so Westerners resorted to the black market. > The Taiping Rebellion was the result of foreign control of China. The Chinese peasants were sick of being treated as human scum by the foreign white powers. White people had access to a small handful of cities, on the Yangtze and Yellow rivers and on the coast. In those cities, they had zones where they effectively governed, but outside of that they had no real power. 99% of the Chinese population never saw a white person. The Taiping rebellion was related to Western presence, but it was absolutely not a reaction to abuse by white people. > Ahh.. let’s just brush our [westerners] bad behavior of the past, under the rugs. It happened a long time ago, let’s just forget about it, ok? Westerners did some shit in China. I mean, the Opium Wars were seriously morally bankrupt, they just weren't that significant from a contemporary Chinese perspective. I'm not trying to brush it under the rug, just to put it in perspective.