4 ms·

My head was still in the place it was when we were developing the feature. I thought it was a communication problem (if I could only communicate how this featur

by ammon 6y ago

My head was still in the place it was when we were developing the feature. I thought it was a communication problem (if I could only communicate how this feature could help a lot of people everyone would understand). Perhaps I'm just slow. But it took some time and repetition for the magnitude of my error to sink in and me to really hear what people were saying.

skinkestek 6y ago
Good answer. Actually first good answer I remember seeing from any of you so far. I still wonder why you tried the infamous "I'm sorry that you cannot understand" line here?
- dllthomas 6y ago
  I don't know... it's not a great response from a company, but sometimes it's genuinely the case that disagreement comes from a lack of understanding. An impulse to try and explain more clearly is relatable.
GordonS 6y ago
> if I could only communicate how this feature could help a lot of people everyone would understand I don't mean to flog a dead horse, but you seem to be intent on digging a deeper and deeper hole. It's not for you or anyone else to make someone's data public without their consent, because you think it helps them. > and me to really hear what people were saying Nobody should need to tell you any of this. If it truely did, then you clearly don't care a jot about privacy, and simply aren't responsible enough to manage other people's data. A companies ethos and values cascade down from the top, so your attitude towards privacy is especially concerning.
- ColinWright 6y ago
  I think you've missed the point ... that parenthetical comment is what was previously in his mind, he's sharing with us why he was, at that time, still pushing and defending. I don't see this in any way as still digging the hole. As for the rest of your comment, you seem purely to be repeating what he says he now knows. Although others have, I haven't downvoted you, but it feels like you're still being angry about what the situation was, and not trying to adapt to what this situation is. I agree that there are still legitimate causes for concern, but it's worth taking time to think about what they really are.
  - GordonS 6y ago
    Yes, I'm repeating what he already claims to know, because my point is he should already have known it. I am casting doubt on his sincerity, given this feature, his arguments on HN the other day, and what he's said now. I'm not still angry about what the situation was - I believe the only reason this feature was rolled back is because there was a big backlash. I really believe his whole attitude towards other people's data means he isn't responsible enough to store it. It's exactly irresponsible moves like this that led to the GDPR in the first place (something else contravened by this feature)
    - elliekelly 6y ago
      I can certainly understand that when you're excited about rolling out a new feature and you encounter some pushback your gut reaction might be to "sell" people on it or try to explain it better rather than listen. The important thing is that he did eventually listen. I think it's also important to distinguish the idea from the execution. A LinkedIn alternative for developers is a great idea. The problem was the incredibly short opt-out (instead of opt-in) with notice given to users on Friday afternoon of a long holiday weekend.
      - GordonS 6y ago
        I totally understand being excited about a new feature, but I don't understand the lax attitude towards privacy, especially not nowadays. I somewhat agree, in that the important thing for now is that he did eventually relent. But I'm not convinced he actually listened, so much as relented under pressure. I don't think those values bode well for the company going forward. I certainly hope I'm proved wrong on that.
rebotfc 6y ago
You do realise that if you have any European users you have majorly contravened GDPR regulations and data protection rules. I'm talking 20 million euros in fines
- samel1994 6y ago
  Triplebyte is not for EU users. You're forgetting that Triplebyte is an American company, they're not subject to European nanny laws.
  - ummonk 6y ago
    Eh, likely some of the people who have gone through Triplebyte are now in Europe, subjecting its use of their data to GDPR law.
  - washitallaway 6y ago
    Any European citizen is covered by GDPR no matter where they are located.
    - colejohnson66 6y ago
      I’m curious how that’ll work in practice. The sovereignty of a nation is a big thing. The US isn’t going to just prosecute TripleByte because Europe said they should. Sure, if @ammon visits the EU, he could be arrested, but a nation’s laws (generally) don’t extend past their border.
      - ryanwaggoner 6y ago
        It’s a total pipe dream. I don’t know what fantasy land people are living in where they think the EU is going to successfully collect a dollar in fines from some random small company elsewhere in the world, no matter how messed up their privacy practices are.
    - ryanwaggoner 6y ago
      First of all, this isn’t popular with the EU crowd here, but there’s no method of enforcement for GDPR for American companies without a presence in Europe. Good luck trying to collect a fine from some tiny business in the US Second, you really think GDPR is going to be applied to some tiny American startup because they said they might do something and then didn’t? Third, my understanding is that if you don’t target EU customers, GDPR doesn’t apply. It’s not enough that an EU customer happens to wander into your store. You have to have some accommodation targeting the EU (like translated pages, international shipping, different currencies, etc)
wh-uws 6y ago
This is why you don't release on a Friday. Best case scenario you spend the whole weekend focused on whether the release went right... Worse you spend the whole weekend cleaning a mess up. Its pretty much always a lose/ lose.
- sverhagen 6y ago
  If you can't reliably release on a Friday, your delivery process is broken. Should you send customers an unsettling policy change, late on a Friday, nah, still a hard NO.
  - wh-uws 6y ago
    I didn't say don't have a release process good enough to release be able on Friday (obviously you want this for emergencies). I said don't release on Friday. No ones release process is perfect and the best time to find holes in it is when you are just ready to have the week be over so you can happy hour on a Friday. In this case at least part of the release process that was broken was how it was communicated to users. Now they have to spend the whole weekend putting out this fire. Why take the chance in a non emergency situation? Enjoy your weekend and do it with a fresh mind Monday morning.
JoshTriplett 6y ago
If you don't already have one, have you considered having a collection of users who you can privately ask about potential features (or run email wording by) to figure out how it would go over? A user of the product could easily have told you, in advance, "some people are looking for a job secretly and this would be a problem". You could also come up with incentives to encourage job seekers to opt in; for instance, you could temporarily tag such users as "likely to get hired sooner" in reports for prospective employers.
- ammon 6y ago
  I really like this idea. I'll talk to my head of product about it.
  - sockr8s 6y ago
    Now I am curious what the conversations so far have been about if opt-in was never discussed? Are you looking for product managers?
- mosselman 6y ago
  > you could temporarily tag such users as "likely to get hired sooner" Lets start lying to the customers on top of this fiasco.
- hysan 6y ago
  I'm actually surprised that I didn't see this posted in the TripleByte Alum Slack for feedback prior to announcement or even announced there at all. It was the first place I checked after seeing the email/post on HN.
- fma 6y ago
  I woulda thought they have enough engineers in the company that the engineers would have raised a red flag...
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    Studies actually show that subordinates generally do not raise concern to their superiors about issues for either fear of reprimand or thinking the superior knows more than you. If @ammon had said, “this will be a great feature,” the devs would keep quiet because they either (1) don’t want to be fired, or (2) trust he knows better than them.

by ammon 6y ago

skinkestek 6y ago

Good answer. Actually first good answer I remember seeing from any of you so far. I still wonder why you tried the infamous "I'm sorry that you cannot understand" line here?

dllthomas 6y ago
I don't know... it's not a great response from a company, but sometimes it's genuinely the case that disagreement comes from a lack of understanding. An impulse to try and explain more clearly is relatable.

GordonS 6y ago

> if I could only communicate how this feature could help a lot of people everyone would understand I don't mean to flog a dead horse, but you seem to be intent on digging a deeper and deeper hole. It's not for you or anyone else to make someone's data public without their consent, because you think it helps them. > and me to really hear what people were saying Nobody should need to tell you any of this. If it truely did, then you clearly don't care a jot about privacy, and simply aren't responsible enough to manage other people's data. A companies ethos and values cascade down from the top, so your attitude towards privacy is especially concerning.

ColinWright 6y ago
I think you've missed the point ... that parenthetical comment is what was previously in his mind, he's sharing with us why he was, at that time, still pushing and defending. I don't see this in any way as still digging the hole. As for the rest of your comment, you seem purely to be repeating what he says he now knows. Although others have, I haven't downvoted you, but it feels like you're still being angry about what the situation was, and not trying to adapt to what this situation is. I agree that there are still legitimate causes for concern, but it's worth taking time to think about what they really are.
- GordonS 6y ago
  Yes, I'm repeating what he already claims to know, because my point is he should already have known it. I am casting doubt on his sincerity, given this feature, his arguments on HN the other day, and what he's said now. I'm not still angry about what the situation was - I believe the only reason this feature was rolled back is because there was a big backlash. I really believe his whole attitude towards other people's data means he isn't responsible enough to store it. It's exactly irresponsible moves like this that led to the GDPR in the first place (something else contravened by this feature)
  - elliekelly 6y ago
    I can certainly understand that when you're excited about rolling out a new feature and you encounter some pushback your gut reaction might be to "sell" people on it or try to explain it better rather than listen. The important thing is that he did eventually listen. I think it's also important to distinguish the idea from the execution. A LinkedIn alternative for developers is a great idea. The problem was the incredibly short opt-out (instead of opt-in) with notice given to users on Friday afternoon of a long holiday weekend.
    - GordonS 6y ago
      I totally understand being excited about a new feature, but I don't understand the lax attitude towards privacy, especially not nowadays. I somewhat agree, in that the important thing for now is that he did eventually relent. But I'm not convinced he actually listened, so much as relented under pressure. I don't think those values bode well for the company going forward. I certainly hope I'm proved wrong on that.

rebotfc 6y ago

You do realise that if you have any European users you have majorly contravened GDPR regulations and data protection rules. I'm talking 20 million euros in fines

samel1994 6y ago
Triplebyte is not for EU users. You're forgetting that Triplebyte is an American company, they're not subject to European nanny laws.
- ummonk 6y ago
  Eh, likely some of the people who have gone through Triplebyte are now in Europe, subjecting its use of their data to GDPR law.
- washitallaway 6y ago
  Any European citizen is covered by GDPR no matter where they are located.
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    I’m curious how that’ll work in practice. The sovereignty of a nation is a big thing. The US isn’t going to just prosecute TripleByte because Europe said they should. Sure, if @ammon visits the EU, he could be arrested, but a nation’s laws (generally) don’t extend past their border.
    - ryanwaggoner 6y ago
      It’s a total pipe dream. I don’t know what fantasy land people are living in where they think the EU is going to successfully collect a dollar in fines from some random small company elsewhere in the world, no matter how messed up their privacy practices are.
  - ryanwaggoner 6y ago
    First of all, this isn’t popular with the EU crowd here, but there’s no method of enforcement for GDPR for American companies without a presence in Europe. Good luck trying to collect a fine from some tiny business in the US Second, you really think GDPR is going to be applied to some tiny American startup because they said they might do something and then didn’t? Third, my understanding is that if you don’t target EU customers, GDPR doesn’t apply. It’s not enough that an EU customer happens to wander into your store. You have to have some accommodation targeting the EU (like translated pages, international shipping, different currencies, etc)

wh-uws 6y ago

This is why you don't release on a Friday. Best case scenario you spend the whole weekend focused on whether the release went right... Worse you spend the whole weekend cleaning a mess up. Its pretty much always a lose/ lose.

sverhagen 6y ago
If you can't reliably release on a Friday, your delivery process is broken. Should you send customers an unsettling policy change, late on a Friday, nah, still a hard NO.
- wh-uws 6y ago
  I didn't say don't have a release process good enough to release be able on Friday (obviously you want this for emergencies). I said don't release on Friday. No ones release process is perfect and the best time to find holes in it is when you are just ready to have the week be over so you can happy hour on a Friday. In this case at least part of the release process that was broken was how it was communicated to users. Now they have to spend the whole weekend putting out this fire. Why take the chance in a non emergency situation? Enjoy your weekend and do it with a fresh mind Monday morning.

JoshTriplett 6y ago

If you don't already have one, have you considered having a collection of users who you can privately ask about potential features (or run email wording by) to figure out how it would go over? A user of the product could easily have told you, in advance, "some people are looking for a job secretly and this would be a problem". You could also come up with incentives to encourage job seekers to opt in; for instance, you could temporarily tag such users as "likely to get hired sooner" in reports for prospective employers.

ammon 6y ago
I really like this idea. I'll talk to my head of product about it.
- sockr8s 6y ago
  Now I am curious what the conversations so far have been about if opt-in was never discussed? Are you looking for product managers?
mosselman 6y ago
> you could temporarily tag such users as "likely to get hired sooner" Lets start lying to the customers on top of this fiasco.
hysan 6y ago
I'm actually surprised that I didn't see this posted in the TripleByte Alum Slack for feedback prior to announcement or even announced there at all. It was the first place I checked after seeing the email/post on HN.
fma 6y ago
I woulda thought they have enough engineers in the company that the engineers would have raised a red flag...
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  Studies actually show that subordinates generally do not raise concern to their superiors about issues for either fear of reprimand or thinking the superior knows more than you. If @ammon had said, “this will be a great feature,” the devs would keep quiet because they either (1) don’t want to be fired, or (2) trust he knows better than them.