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"through a coerced opium trade," You forgot to mention WHY the opium trade happened. China was exporting tea, silk and porcelain like there is no tomorrow and

"through a coerced opium trade," You forgot to mention WHY the opium trade happened. China was exporting tea, silk and porcelain like there is no tomorrow and at the same time had accumulated the majority of the world silver reserves since they did not want to buy anything, therefore chocking the world economy. Then the British said, wait, we have something that you want to buy!

clairity 6y ago
well yes, but the british, like any astute drug dealer, pushed the product on the buyer. it wasn't like the chinese had huge latent demand that wasn't being fulfilled. it was largely induced to loosen the stockpiles.
- solidsnack9000 6y ago
  There was, in fact, huge demand. The delivery of British opium to China required a lot of help from Chinese merchants. Opium was legal in China and had been brought in from abroad for several hundred years by that point. Importation was banned in the 1700s after the Portuguese got into the business; but excluding foreigners did not actually exclude foreign opium, since Chinese merchants would bring it in and pass it off as Chinese-sourced opium.
  - clairity 6y ago
    none of those assertions provides any relevant rationale for huge pre-existing demand prior to the british desire to extract riches in exchange for drugs.
    - solidsnack9000 6y ago
      Demand for opium was on the upswing in China before the British entered the trade. The British did not have a power to manufacture demand in China and in fact could not place personnel in China. British opium was smuggled into China by Chinese merchants.
      - clairity 6y ago
        again, all assertion, no rationale. besides, the british didn't need to be in the interior of china en masse to induce demand.
        solidsnack9000 6y ago
        I don't have a rationale for the increasing demand for opium in the 1700s -- I don't know why it was increasing -- but it is well documented.
- nickik 6y ago
  Opium had existed for a long time and the demand for it existed. British merchants responded to market demand and smart business people realized the ability to grow it in India and places like that and then sell it in China. Its not like England had this huge imperial stockpile of opium laying around that they went out to find a buyer for. The opium supply grew because there was demand. The nature of drugs is that supply also induces some demand, but the idea that the British had some masterplan to get the China hooked on Opium is kind of conspiracy theory nonsense. Capitalism responds to market prices and the limits of the market regulations enforced on them.
  - enitihas 6y ago
    Your comment makes it seem like "smart business people" should ignore Government bans on things even if the things are harmful as long as there is "demand" for them. So is it OK to export to banned drugs in the UK if there is demand for them, or if demand arises?
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      I think the brits are currently more concerned about chinese hedge funds: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britain-china/british-lawmaker-says-uk-must-defend-its-companies-against-overseas-takeovers-ft-idUSKBN22Z0UR?il=0 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britai... "while Britain has prided itself on being an open economy with few restrictions on foreign ownership for decades, the basis for that model has been changed by the “rise in state capitalism with deep pockets”."
      - enitihas 6y ago
        > “rise in state capitalism with deep pockets”." I think that term was coined to describe the EIC.
        082349872349872 6y ago
        I was going to say that any potential hostile takeovers by chinese hedge funds probably wouldn't involve anything as kinetically hostile as the EIC's presidency armies, but a little surfing turned up 先丰服务集团 (Frontier Services Group)... What is the indian or chinese equivalent to "The Fox and the Crane"?
enitihas 6y ago
So in short, the British wanted stuff from China, but had nothing China wanted, so they resorted to smuggling drugs to China, and when the government objected and burnt a large amount of Opium, the British went to war against China for their right of "dealing drugs".
- solidsnack9000 6y ago
  It's important to distinguish between what Chinese people wanted and what the administration wanted. The imperial administration's pursuit of mercantilist policy didn't mean that "The British could offer little in return that Chinese merchants wanted to buy." as the article incorrectly states. China had been purchasing opium abroad from other countries for several centuries. The importation of opium was banned in the 1700s, but opium was still legal for sale in China. The effect was that foreigners were barred from participating in the business. Chinese merchants smuggled British opium into China and sold it as Chinese opium. Chinese people definitely wanted British opium and Chinese merchants definitely wanted to sell it to them. If opium had been illegal, you might have a point; but it was legal for sale in China until 1799.
  - enitihas 6y ago
    Opium was made illegal in China since 1800 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_opium_at_Humen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_opium_at_Humen). The government even appointed a commissioner to solve the Opium issue and the commissioner proceeded to destroy huge amounts of Opium, which was the trigger point of the Opium war. > Chinese people definitely wanted British opium and Chinese merchants definitely wanted to sell it to them. As in the Americans want substances banned by their federal government, and Escobar and others definitely wanted to sell it to them? Will that justify another country dumping those in America?
    - solidsnack9000 6y ago
      It's not correct to say that Chinese people didn't want things from the west, or that imperial trade policy -- restricting all trade to Canton and so forth -- was representative of a lack of interest in goods that westerners had to trade. Opium is the obvious case.
blackrock 6y ago
> Then the British said, wait, we have something that you want to buy! LOL. You’ve gotta admit, that the British are total scumbags for thinking this. How does this logic serve your moral goals? Hey, let’s get a bunch of Chinese peasants addicted to drugs, and then we will supply them that drug. Profit! You’ve got to admit that the British has lost any moral standing for doing such things. Easy steps: 1. Get foreigners addicted to drugs 2. Supply them with drugs, and make it legal to operate there. 3. Meanwhile, the drug is illegal in Britain. 4. Profit
- philipkglass 6y ago
  The drug was not illegal in Britain. "Prior to 1916, there were no restrictions on the possession and use of cocaine, opium and other psychoactive drugs in Britain; the Poisons and Pharmacy Act of 1908 stipulated only that pharmacists had to have been introduced to prospective buyers by someone known to them, and must record their names and addresses in a poisons register." http://ww1centenary.oucs.ox.ac.uk/body-and-mind/drugs-and-dora-2/ http://ww1centenary.oucs.ox.ac.uk/body-and-mind/drugs-and-do... I don't think that British traders selling opium to Chinese buyers in the 1800s was inherently more deplorable than Canadians selling liquor to Americans during Prohibition. What was deplorable about the Opium Wars and the Prohibition era gangs was the use of violence. If it had just been the era of Opium Smuggling instead of the Opium Wars I wouldn't fault Britain's behavior. But Britain did, deplorably, use military force when Chinese authorities prohibited and confiscated imported opium. That was inexcusable.

clairity 6y ago

well yes, but the british, like any astute drug dealer, pushed the product on the buyer. it wasn't like the chinese had huge latent demand that wasn't being fulfilled. it was largely induced to loosen the stockpiles.

solidsnack9000 6y ago
There was, in fact, huge demand. The delivery of British opium to China required a lot of help from Chinese merchants. Opium was legal in China and had been brought in from abroad for several hundred years by that point. Importation was banned in the 1700s after the Portuguese got into the business; but excluding foreigners did not actually exclude foreign opium, since Chinese merchants would bring it in and pass it off as Chinese-sourced opium.
- clairity 6y ago
  none of those assertions provides any relevant rationale for huge pre-existing demand prior to the british desire to extract riches in exchange for drugs.
  - solidsnack9000 6y ago
    Demand for opium was on the upswing in China before the British entered the trade. The British did not have a power to manufacture demand in China and in fact could not place personnel in China. British opium was smuggled into China by Chinese merchants.
    - clairity 6y ago
      again, all assertion, no rationale. besides, the british didn't need to be in the interior of china en masse to induce demand.
      - solidsnack9000 6y ago
        I don't have a rationale for the increasing demand for opium in the 1700s -- I don't know why it was increasing -- but it is well documented.
nickik 6y ago
Opium had existed for a long time and the demand for it existed. British merchants responded to market demand and smart business people realized the ability to grow it in India and places like that and then sell it in China. Its not like England had this huge imperial stockpile of opium laying around that they went out to find a buyer for. The opium supply grew because there was demand. The nature of drugs is that supply also induces some demand, but the idea that the British had some masterplan to get the China hooked on Opium is kind of conspiracy theory nonsense. Capitalism responds to market prices and the limits of the market regulations enforced on them.
- enitihas 6y ago
  Your comment makes it seem like "smart business people" should ignore Government bans on things even if the things are harmful as long as there is "demand" for them. So is it OK to export to banned drugs in the UK if there is demand for them, or if demand arises?
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    I think the brits are currently more concerned about chinese hedge funds: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britain-china/british-lawmaker-says-uk-must-defend-its-companies-against-overseas-takeovers-ft-idUSKBN22Z0UR?il=0 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britai... "while Britain has prided itself on being an open economy with few restrictions on foreign ownership for decades, the basis for that model has been changed by the “rise in state capitalism with deep pockets”."
    - enitihas 6y ago
      > “rise in state capitalism with deep pockets”." I think that term was coined to describe the EIC.
      - 082349872349872 6y ago
        I was going to say that any potential hostile takeovers by chinese hedge funds probably wouldn't involve anything as kinetically hostile as the EIC's presidency armies, but a little surfing turned up 先丰服务集团 (Frontier Services Group)... What is the indian or chinese equivalent to "The Fox and the Crane"?

enitihas 6y ago

So in short, the British wanted stuff from China, but had nothing China wanted, so they resorted to smuggling drugs to China, and when the government objected and burnt a large amount of Opium, the British went to war against China for their right of "dealing drugs".

solidsnack9000 6y ago
It's important to distinguish between what Chinese people wanted and what the administration wanted. The imperial administration's pursuit of mercantilist policy didn't mean that "The British could offer little in return that Chinese merchants wanted to buy." as the article incorrectly states. China had been purchasing opium abroad from other countries for several centuries. The importation of opium was banned in the 1700s, but opium was still legal for sale in China. The effect was that foreigners were barred from participating in the business. Chinese merchants smuggled British opium into China and sold it as Chinese opium. Chinese people definitely wanted British opium and Chinese merchants definitely wanted to sell it to them. If opium had been illegal, you might have a point; but it was legal for sale in China until 1799.
- enitihas 6y ago
  Opium was made illegal in China since 1800 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_opium_at_Humen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_opium_at_Humen). The government even appointed a commissioner to solve the Opium issue and the commissioner proceeded to destroy huge amounts of Opium, which was the trigger point of the Opium war. > Chinese people definitely wanted British opium and Chinese merchants definitely wanted to sell it to them. As in the Americans want substances banned by their federal government, and Escobar and others definitely wanted to sell it to them? Will that justify another country dumping those in America?
  - solidsnack9000 6y ago
    It's not correct to say that Chinese people didn't want things from the west, or that imperial trade policy -- restricting all trade to Canton and so forth -- was representative of a lack of interest in goods that westerners had to trade. Opium is the obvious case.

blackrock 6y ago

> Then the British said, wait, we have something that you want to buy! LOL. You’ve gotta admit, that the British are total scumbags for thinking this. How does this logic serve your moral goals? Hey, let’s get a bunch of Chinese peasants addicted to drugs, and then we will supply them that drug. Profit! You’ve got to admit that the British has lost any moral standing for doing such things. Easy steps: 1. Get foreigners addicted to drugs 2. Supply them with drugs, and make it legal to operate there. 3. Meanwhile, the drug is illegal in Britain. 4. Profit

philipkglass 6y ago
The drug was not illegal in Britain. "Prior to 1916, there were no restrictions on the possession and use of cocaine, opium and other psychoactive drugs in Britain; the Poisons and Pharmacy Act of 1908 stipulated only that pharmacists had to have been introduced to prospective buyers by someone known to them, and must record their names and addresses in a poisons register." http://ww1centenary.oucs.ox.ac.uk/body-and-mind/drugs-and-dora-2/ http://ww1centenary.oucs.ox.ac.uk/body-and-mind/drugs-and-do... I don't think that British traders selling opium to Chinese buyers in the 1800s was inherently more deplorable than Canadians selling liquor to Americans during Prohibition. What was deplorable about the Opium Wars and the Prohibition era gangs was the use of violence. If it had just been the era of Opium Smuggling instead of the Opium Wars I wouldn't fault Britain's behavior. But Britain did, deplorably, use military force when Chinese authorities prohibited and confiscated imported opium. That was inexcusable.