3 ms·

> My ethical compass would feel it's wrong to squeeze additional benefits from an arrangement I have seen others thinking like that, and then become very sore

> My ethical compass would feel it's wrong to squeeze additional benefits from an arrangement I have seen others thinking like that, and then become very sore when they are fired in an economic downturn. They feel that "it is not fair" because they did as much as they could for their company, the company did not care. Is that different in Switzerland? Has it a similar culture to Japan where firing an employee is the last resource? Or is it more like other European countries were a simple merge or a decline in share value increase the possibility of being laid off? > So there's always a threat of losing your job if you try to push it. That is true for everything. Are you aiming on being always the cheaper employee in your company? That is an strategy that may work when there is lay offs, but I do not know much wealth you will accumulate in the long term with that strategy instead of trying to maximize your salary/benefits. I know that your attitude reduces salaries and reduces my and any other developer salary expectations, so maybe that makes me be extra doubtful of how good is your strategy for all the rest of us (or yourself). If you do not care for your well-being but you are willing to do sacrifices for your company, may I ask what sector your company works in? Maybe, is it an NGO?

dahfizz 6y ago
There is a (not so fine) line between looking after yourself and being a greedy jerk. I find that a little bit of grace goes a long way. Ask for a raise when you deserve it, absolutely. But if you ruthlessly try to extract every last penny from your employer, they will do the same to you. Have you ever browsed HN at work? Have you ever left just a few minutes before 5? I don't want my workplace to be a battleground over pennies. Treat your employer with some grace and they will do the same. Unless, of course, your employer is already a greedy asshole. Then you should change employers.
- CaptainZapp 6y ago
  > Have you ever browsed HN at work? Have you ever left just a few minutes before 5? I have to admit: Guilty on both counts. But there's of course the other side. Where I went above and beyond to solve critical issues. And while we're at it: You succinctly explained so much better what I mean than me in my long diatribe. Thanks!
- Draiken 6y ago
  Maybe you have a very good and ethical employer, but my anecdotal evidence tells me it's not the rule, it's the exception. Why is it okay for an owner to try to squeeze every penny he can out of his employees but not okay for the employees to do it? The real problem is that the company normally holds the leverage, so the employee has no recourse, no matter how "ethically" wrong the situation may be. Not to mention a company without its employees is nothing. So assuming everyone is working on good faith (neither side is cheating the other) your conscience should be more than clear when asking for more as in the example of rent. The risk is almost always on the side of the employee. For the company you're normally just a number. The balance does shift depending on the company size, but I believe this logic still holds true.
  - jeffrallen 6y ago
    > Why is it okay for an owner to try to squeeze every penny he can out of his employees but not okay for the employees to do it? An eye for an eye and all the world is eventually blind.
- perl4ever 6y ago
  "Have you ever left just a few minutes before 5" There's a story I was once told about how someone worked really late and then they came in late the next morning, but a VP happened to notice and they got in trouble despite having worked overtime. I'm in favor of not being a "greedy jerk", but you have to do it for yourself. If you think you will be rewarded, that is delusional, and really just another type of greed.
CaptainZapp 6y ago
> I have seen others thinking like that, and then become very sore when they are fired in an economic downturn. I see where you're coming from and to answer one of your later question: I work in one of the most dog eat dog industries, which is finance. That said, I don't see myself as a charitable extension of my employer. I'm well paid and fairly treated and as long this is the case my employer can expect me to deliver the best possible performance and my loyalty as long we're in a contractual relationship. Let me qualify loyalty, becasue it touches exactly into the neither regions you're outlining (I was loyal all my life and now I get the boot. And while that gripe may be justified it's not really helpful). Anyway, loyalty in the sense that as long we're in a contractual relationship my employer can expect me to do good work, professionalism, confidentiality (a huge thing in finance), that I don't fib expense claims and that I don't steal the office supplies, among some examples. I expect decent treatment, supplying of all the tools, information, training and resources required to perform my job, human decency in general and a certain amount of fairness. That's while the contract lasts and partially beyond, confidentiality being a good example for that. I understand that it's a transactional agreement, which lasts as long the contract lasts and doesn't imply a job guarantee. But one part of the deal and as long it's reasonably balanced is that I just wouldn't seek out ways how to squeeze a couple hundred francs a month extra, which I don't believe I have coming. I feel fairly and well enough paid so that I don't really factor in the use of a bit of power and my personal laptop, which is essentially the whole cost I incur. For what it's worth my employer provides a laptop, but it's far more comfortable and convenient to work on my own system within their secure setup with a real keyboard and a 24" screen. That's my choice and if I have that option and chose to use it I don't see why that's my employers problem. > Is that different in Switzerland? Has it a similar culture to Japan where firing an employee is the last resource? Or is it more like other European countries were a simple merge or a decline in share value increase the possibility of being laid off? Actually it's harder to fire employees in most European countries. Switzerland has comparatively liberal employment laws compared to a lot of other (western and southern) European countries. Liberal as in a contract can be terminated from both sides under respect of a notice period without a reason specified. This is much harder in, for example France or Spain, which has the drawback that companies very much prefer temporary employment, which in turn leads to a two class employment system. I think it's a bit of an attitude thing. Companies, whenever possible, prefer to hang on to their employees, even during downturns, since they consider it cheaper than to re-hire and retrain a lot of employees in the next upswing. Differences in social security arrangements also make that more palatable for companies. And it's not only a cost thing, it's also the loss of important institutional knowledge, which is irreplaceable. > I know that your attitude reduces salaries and reduces my and any other developer salary expectations, so maybe that makes me be extra doubtful of how good is your strategy for all the rest of us (or yourself). I hope not. As I could hopefully illustrate I'm not in the corporate wellfare business. I don't believe in dumping and the one thing that bugs me so much with our race to the bottom capitalism we now have, best illustrated by the gig economy, is the "how can we squeeze out more and more, while treating vital partners (employees) like crap" attitude you see so much nowadays. Maybe it's just me, but I believe in transactional fairness. As long I feel well treated I just don't see the point of trying to squeeze every last inch of advantage from my vis-a-vis. It's not about giving away the shop, but about fairness and trust. Maybe one of the best examples I can give you is Amazon. Or the fact that I never bought anything since their book dealing days, when they suddenly pulled their privacy bait and switch. I wouldn't give them my business, even if it's cheaper. As it turns out that's not such a bad attitude to have.
082349872349872 6y ago
An example of layoff differences between CH and US: unemployment in April climbed to 3,3%, with the doomsayers worrying what might happen if it eventually goes to an (unprecedented) 7% due to coronavirus. (there are many other differences; eg swiss don't take their rifles to demonstrations)

dahfizz 6y ago

There is a (not so fine) line between looking after yourself and being a greedy jerk. I find that a little bit of grace goes a long way. Ask for a raise when you deserve it, absolutely. But if you ruthlessly try to extract every last penny from your employer, they will do the same to you. Have you ever browsed HN at work? Have you ever left just a few minutes before 5? I don't want my workplace to be a battleground over pennies. Treat your employer with some grace and they will do the same. Unless, of course, your employer is already a greedy asshole. Then you should change employers.

CaptainZapp 6y ago
> Have you ever browsed HN at work? Have you ever left just a few minutes before 5? I have to admit: Guilty on both counts. But there's of course the other side. Where I went above and beyond to solve critical issues. And while we're at it: You succinctly explained so much better what I mean than me in my long diatribe. Thanks!
Draiken 6y ago
Maybe you have a very good and ethical employer, but my anecdotal evidence tells me it's not the rule, it's the exception. Why is it okay for an owner to try to squeeze every penny he can out of his employees but not okay for the employees to do it? The real problem is that the company normally holds the leverage, so the employee has no recourse, no matter how "ethically" wrong the situation may be. Not to mention a company without its employees is nothing. So assuming everyone is working on good faith (neither side is cheating the other) your conscience should be more than clear when asking for more as in the example of rent. The risk is almost always on the side of the employee. For the company you're normally just a number. The balance does shift depending on the company size, but I believe this logic still holds true.
- jeffrallen 6y ago
  > Why is it okay for an owner to try to squeeze every penny he can out of his employees but not okay for the employees to do it? An eye for an eye and all the world is eventually blind.
perl4ever 6y ago
"Have you ever left just a few minutes before 5" There's a story I was once told about how someone worked really late and then they came in late the next morning, but a VP happened to notice and they got in trouble despite having worked overtime. I'm in favor of not being a "greedy jerk", but you have to do it for yourself. If you think you will be rewarded, that is delusional, and really just another type of greed.

CaptainZapp 6y ago

> I have seen others thinking like that, and then become very sore when they are fired in an economic downturn. I see where you're coming from and to answer one of your later question: I work in one of the most dog eat dog industries, which is finance. That said, I don't see myself as a charitable extension of my employer. I'm well paid and fairly treated and as long this is the case my employer can expect me to deliver the best possible performance and my loyalty as long we're in a contractual relationship. Let me qualify loyalty, becasue it touches exactly into the neither regions you're outlining (I was loyal all my life and now I get the boot. And while that gripe may be justified it's not really helpful). Anyway, loyalty in the sense that as long we're in a contractual relationship my employer can expect me to do good work, professionalism, confidentiality (a huge thing in finance), that I don't fib expense claims and that I don't steal the office supplies, among some examples. I expect decent treatment, supplying of all the tools, information, training and resources required to perform my job, human decency in general and a certain amount of fairness. That's while the contract lasts and partially beyond, confidentiality being a good example for that. I understand that it's a transactional agreement, which lasts as long the contract lasts and doesn't imply a job guarantee. But one part of the deal and as long it's reasonably balanced is that I just wouldn't seek out ways how to squeeze a couple hundred francs a month extra, which I don't believe I have coming. I feel fairly and well enough paid so that I don't really factor in the use of a bit of power and my personal laptop, which is essentially the whole cost I incur. For what it's worth my employer provides a laptop, but it's far more comfortable and convenient to work on my own system within their secure setup with a real keyboard and a 24" screen. That's my choice and if I have that option and chose to use it I don't see why that's my employers problem. > Is that different in Switzerland? Has it a similar culture to Japan where firing an employee is the last resource? Or is it more like other European countries were a simple merge or a decline in share value increase the possibility of being laid off? Actually it's harder to fire employees in most European countries. Switzerland has comparatively liberal employment laws compared to a lot of other (western and southern) European countries. Liberal as in a contract can be terminated from both sides under respect of a notice period without a reason specified. This is much harder in, for example France or Spain, which has the drawback that companies very much prefer temporary employment, which in turn leads to a two class employment system. I think it's a bit of an attitude thing. Companies, whenever possible, prefer to hang on to their employees, even during downturns, since they consider it cheaper than to re-hire and retrain a lot of employees in the next upswing. Differences in social security arrangements also make that more palatable for companies. And it's not only a cost thing, it's also the loss of important institutional knowledge, which is irreplaceable. > I know that your attitude reduces salaries and reduces my and any other developer salary expectations, so maybe that makes me be extra doubtful of how good is your strategy for all the rest of us (or yourself). I hope not. As I could hopefully illustrate I'm not in the corporate wellfare business. I don't believe in dumping and the one thing that bugs me so much with our race to the bottom capitalism we now have, best illustrated by the gig economy, is the "how can we squeeze out more and more, while treating vital partners (employees) like crap" attitude you see so much nowadays. Maybe it's just me, but I believe in transactional fairness. As long I feel well treated I just don't see the point of trying to squeeze every last inch of advantage from my vis-a-vis. It's not about giving away the shop, but about fairness and trust. Maybe one of the best examples I can give you is Amazon. Or the fact that I never bought anything since their book dealing days, when they suddenly pulled their privacy bait and switch. I wouldn't give them my business, even if it's cheaper. As it turns out that's not such a bad attitude to have.

082349872349872 6y ago

An example of layoff differences between CH and US: unemployment in April climbed to 3,3%, with the doomsayers worrying what might happen if it eventually goes to an (unprecedented) 7% due to coronavirus. (there are many other differences; eg swiss don't take their rifles to demonstrations)