7 ms·

Japan takes a lot of criticism for being a closed off culture. After living here for a while I have started to believe that it is necessary to support these val

by po 16y ago

Japan takes a lot of criticism for being a closed off culture. After living here for a while I have started to believe that it is necessary to support these values. Multiculturalism means lowest common denominator. There are efficiencies you can gain by having a monoculture. Nobody has to lock their bikes, subways can have nice cloth seats and you can walk around in any neighborhood and be safe. When I came to Tokyo, a lot of foreigners I met who had been living here complained about the uptight nature of Japan. Too rigid, too exclusive, too slow to change. Before Tokyo, I lived in a very nice part of Brooklyn. I remember I was walking down the street and I saw a man with his child come out of a store. The kid unwrapped his new toy and promptly threw the package onto the curb. I had a flash of anger and was thinking "what's wrong with that guy not correcting his kid?" As I was thinking this, the guy threw his cigarette pack cellophane on the sidewalk. He had different values than me, and I had a dirty street because of it. In a place like Brooklyn you learn tolerance and how to live with other people's values on a day to day basis. In a place like Tokyo, the system shuns you until you adopt their values. I don't think either is necessarily better but you should be aware of it when you live in Japan and feel left out.

angus77 16y ago
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Nobody has to lock their bikes? I've had three bikes stolen since I first came here in 1998---one of them twice! The cops found one of my bikes a year and a half after it was stolen. Within six months it was stolen again!
- po 16y ago
  OK, I shouldn't have said that because it is an overgeneralization and is overshadowing the point I was trying to make. Coming from New York, I still think people generally don't lock their bikes. They certainly don't chain them to posts with 1/2" steel chains. There is definitely still theft and crime though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Japan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Japan
  - angus77 16y ago
    The point that crime like theft is lower in Japan is totally valid, but I can promise you people do lock their bikes---bike theft is very common. You might not have noticed it because most bike locks come built into the bikes themselves. I don't think I've ever seen those kinds of locks in North America. Furthermore, anyone who has a mountain bike or crossbike does chain them to posts with 1/2" steel chains. The far more common "mama-chari" type bikes are the ones with the built-in locks.
- nhebb 16y ago
  Cops actually find stolen bikes in Japan? Whoa, that is different.
  - angus77 16y ago
    I never expected much---and I sure didn't expect them to find it a year and a half later. Apparently it was left in a no-bike-zone and they realized it was stolen from the registration number. Glad I registered!
OstiaAntica 16y ago
You should have said something to the guy who's kid littered. That's how culture is supposed to work.
- po 16y ago
  Sure... I've thought about that a lot too. You're saying I should have challenged their values with mine. I probably should have said something. And yet I would spend all day long every day in arguments with people who just don't agree with me. I tend to be rather non-confrontational and don't like arguments. Many people can just shrug it off but I get upset by them. In my mind, this is an example of an efficiency gained by the monoculture. edit: Just thought of another little anecdote: I was sitting outside roppongi hills eating a bento on a bench when a woman with a kid and a little dog walked by. The dog stopped to poop and when he was finished she quickly scurried away into her high-rise. My wife and I were flabbergasted. An old woman and her husband walking by gave her the glare and you could see everyone nearby was shocked. About 5 minutes later she came out without the dog but with the kid and a woman from the front desk of her building. They cleaned it up. I guess she didn't have a bag with her and she wanted to drop the dog off and then grab a bag from her house. During the five minutes that it was there, I was thinking how I should have said something.
  - mbreese 16y ago
    Not that I would have done this either, but you could have just picked up their trash for them. Then the dad would have had to explain to his kid why you were cleaning up their mess. Not too confrontational, but it still gets the point across.
    - lurker14 16y ago
      My current hobby is to make a visible point of calling out litterers and picking up their litter if they don't (especially cigaretes). So far, I've gotten ignored a lot, a couple of sheepish looks or mutterings, and I've been assaulted once (after returning a dropped cigarette to the owner, she threw the coffee drink at me, littering further.) I strongly exhort all decent people to make a point of transmitting their values loudly, clearly, and defensibly. If only vandals and thugs feel free to express their beliefs in public, where will that lead us?
nandemo 16y ago
> Nobody has to lock their bikes, Wait, you live in Tokyo, don't you? (I think we met at one of the meetups) Everybody locks their bikes here, and even so bycicle theft is common (well, at least compared to the other types of crime). My own bycicle was stolen while I was out of the country for a couple of weeks... That said, I understand that's not the main point of your comment.
- po 16y ago
  Yes, people lock their bikes: they all have that built in wheel lock thing. It's not like it's a perfect utopia. People are actually very careful about that. Nobody rides around with the giant NYC-style bolt-cutter proof chain like a belt though. You couldn't even have a $1000 bike in NYC but you see them all the time here. There is definitely some theft and crime but it's definitely less. Also, the biggest bike thief is probably the city. ;-)
  - nandemo 16y ago
    I agree. I'm actually glad bycicle theft is just about the worst crime that can happen to me.
  - locopati 16y ago
    A bit of an exaggeration on 'you couldn't even have a $1000 bike in NYC'. I have one and lock it up outside - I see plenty of them locked up around town. But, yes, they're all locked with thick chains and heavy locks, and the seat should be locked to the frame as well if you want to keep that too. Having renters insurance is good too since that will cover you if your bike is stolen.
- qbert 16y ago
  When I lived in Tokyo my roommate had both his bicycle and a motorcycle stolen from outside our apartment building which was in a very nice quiet residential area.
mapgrep 16y ago
"There are efficiencies you can gain by having a monoculture. Nobody has to lock their bikes, subways can have nice cloth seats and you can walk around in any neighborhood and be safe." Bangladesh is 98% ethnic Bengali; you can read about their crime here http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1011.html#crime http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1011.html#c... ("U.S. citizens should avoid walking alone after dark, carrying large sums of money, or wearing expensive jewelry"). Lesotho is 99.7 percent Basotho, with an intentional homicide rate seven times higher than the U.S. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona... Meanwhile, Singapore, split between large numbers of Chinese, Malays and Indians is one of the safest places in the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Singapore http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Singapore). Also safe is Switzerland, which is so ethnically diverse there are three official languages, each widely spoken within the country. (http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1034.html#crime http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1034.html#c...) .
- po 16y ago
  Please note that I'm not saying all monocultures are safe. I am certainly also not saying multi-cultures are unsuccessful. This has nothing to do with safety or success, more efficiency gains and tolerance costs. I'm trying to raise a nuanced point and I went out of my way to say neither is better than the other. I think the efficiency gained depends on the culture gaining it. Japan has decided that they value safety. In Bangladesh there are probably different assumptions you can make. I don't know what they are and I don't want to speculate because I don't have any experience living there. edit: also wanted to add... even though Switzerland is ethnically diverse and speaks many different languages, I would still call it a mono-culture. The swiss are also sometimes criticized for being unique in their ways and resistant to change. Culture is not the same as race or language.
  - mapgrep 16y ago
    "Please note that I'm not saying all monocultures are safe." Sure, but you attributed safety and other "efficiencies" in Japan to "monoculture." You also wrote, "Multiculturalism means lowest common denominator." Now you seem to be attributing safety in Japan not to monoculture but to /Japanese/ culture. Fair enough. In that case, what would happen if 10 million Japanese moved to Bangladesh, making it more multicultural? Would it be a less "efficient" culture? Would it be anchored by the "lowest common denominator," or would the nation improve through the infusion of new cultural values? It seems doubtful that, after conducting this thought experiment, most people could honestly conclude that, "Multiculturalism means lowest common denominator." It likewise seems hard to imagine Singapore in its present state -- including efficiency-wise -- if all those ethnic Chinese has never migrated there. The big context here is that you were defending Japan against criticism that it is a "closed off culture" and "too exclusive, too slow to change." That criticism is very well earned; for all its many virtues, there is a disturbing level of racism in Japan, against Koreans and Americans of black heritage (usually in military service there but not always, see http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101880815-149882,00.html http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101880815-...). There is also the matter of Japan's depressingly extended economic stagnation, going on 20 years old now, which is widely and credibly explained as being closely tied to an unwillingness to embrace new, often foreign values around business, corporate culture, risk taking, credit and competition. The one time I visited Japan, for two weeks, I conjured many positive words to describe the country. "Efficient" was not one of them. The grueling, sit-at-your desk 14 hour workdays that are de rigueur in Japan are not particularly efficient. The make-work jobs everywhere also seemed inefficient, like the guy in a uniform bowing in apology non-stop to people driving by a construction detour in the road, or the full time ticket taker/thanker in the back of the bus who collected my payment stub. The many ritual greetings and apologies also did not seem efficient. I have a hard time seeing how multiculturalism would not ENHANCE Japan's efficiency -- and economy. Update: "The swiss are also sometimes criticized for being unique in their ways and resistant to change. Culture is not the same as race or language." In that case, Brooklyn is a monoculture of New Yorkers, or Americans, and your original distinction between it and Japan is rather meaningless.

by po 16y ago

angus77 16y ago

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Nobody has to lock their bikes? I've had three bikes stolen since I first came here in 1998---one of them twice! The cops found one of my bikes a year and a half after it was stolen. Within six months it was stolen again!

po 16y ago
OK, I shouldn't have said that because it is an overgeneralization and is overshadowing the point I was trying to make. Coming from New York, I still think people generally don't lock their bikes. They certainly don't chain them to posts with 1/2" steel chains. There is definitely still theft and crime though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Japan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Japan
- angus77 16y ago
  The point that crime like theft is lower in Japan is totally valid, but I can promise you people do lock their bikes---bike theft is very common. You might not have noticed it because most bike locks come built into the bikes themselves. I don't think I've ever seen those kinds of locks in North America. Furthermore, anyone who has a mountain bike or crossbike does chain them to posts with 1/2" steel chains. The far more common "mama-chari" type bikes are the ones with the built-in locks.
nhebb 16y ago
Cops actually find stolen bikes in Japan? Whoa, that is different.
- angus77 16y ago
  I never expected much---and I sure didn't expect them to find it a year and a half later. Apparently it was left in a no-bike-zone and they realized it was stolen from the registration number. Glad I registered!

OstiaAntica 16y ago

You should have said something to the guy who's kid littered. That's how culture is supposed to work.

po 16y ago
Sure... I've thought about that a lot too. You're saying I should have challenged their values with mine. I probably should have said something. And yet I would spend all day long every day in arguments with people who just don't agree with me. I tend to be rather non-confrontational and don't like arguments. Many people can just shrug it off but I get upset by them. In my mind, this is an example of an efficiency gained by the monoculture. edit: Just thought of another little anecdote: I was sitting outside roppongi hills eating a bento on a bench when a woman with a kid and a little dog walked by. The dog stopped to poop and when he was finished she quickly scurried away into her high-rise. My wife and I were flabbergasted. An old woman and her husband walking by gave her the glare and you could see everyone nearby was shocked. About 5 minutes later she came out without the dog but with the kid and a woman from the front desk of her building. They cleaned it up. I guess she didn't have a bag with her and she wanted to drop the dog off and then grab a bag from her house. During the five minutes that it was there, I was thinking how I should have said something.
- mbreese 16y ago
  Not that I would have done this either, but you could have just picked up their trash for them. Then the dad would have had to explain to his kid why you were cleaning up their mess. Not too confrontational, but it still gets the point across.
  - lurker14 16y ago
    My current hobby is to make a visible point of calling out litterers and picking up their litter if they don't (especially cigaretes). So far, I've gotten ignored a lot, a couple of sheepish looks or mutterings, and I've been assaulted once (after returning a dropped cigarette to the owner, she threw the coffee drink at me, littering further.) I strongly exhort all decent people to make a point of transmitting their values loudly, clearly, and defensibly. If only vandals and thugs feel free to express their beliefs in public, where will that lead us?

nandemo 16y ago

> Nobody has to lock their bikes, Wait, you live in Tokyo, don't you? (I think we met at one of the meetups) Everybody locks their bikes here, and even so bycicle theft is common (well, at least compared to the other types of crime). My own bycicle was stolen while I was out of the country for a couple of weeks... That said, I understand that's not the main point of your comment.

po 16y ago
Yes, people lock their bikes: they all have that built in wheel lock thing. It's not like it's a perfect utopia. People are actually very careful about that. Nobody rides around with the giant NYC-style bolt-cutter proof chain like a belt though. You couldn't even have a $1000 bike in NYC but you see them all the time here. There is definitely some theft and crime but it's definitely less. Also, the biggest bike thief is probably the city. ;-)
- nandemo 16y ago
  I agree. I'm actually glad bycicle theft is just about the worst crime that can happen to me.
- locopati 16y ago
  A bit of an exaggeration on 'you couldn't even have a $1000 bike in NYC'. I have one and lock it up outside - I see plenty of them locked up around town. But, yes, they're all locked with thick chains and heavy locks, and the seat should be locked to the frame as well if you want to keep that too. Having renters insurance is good too since that will cover you if your bike is stolen.
qbert 16y ago
When I lived in Tokyo my roommate had both his bicycle and a motorcycle stolen from outside our apartment building which was in a very nice quiet residential area.

mapgrep 16y ago

"There are efficiencies you can gain by having a monoculture. Nobody has to lock their bikes, subways can have nice cloth seats and you can walk around in any neighborhood and be safe." Bangladesh is 98% ethnic Bengali; you can read about their crime here http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1011.html#crime http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1011.html#c... ("U.S. citizens should avoid walking alone after dark, carrying large sums of money, or wearing expensive jewelry"). Lesotho is 99.7 percent Basotho, with an intentional homicide rate seven times higher than the U.S. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona... Meanwhile, Singapore, split between large numbers of Chinese, Malays and Indians is one of the safest places in the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Singapore http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Singapore). Also safe is Switzerland, which is so ethnically diverse there are three official languages, each widely spoken within the country. (http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1034.html#crime http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1034.html#c...) .

po 16y ago
Please note that I'm not saying all monocultures are safe. I am certainly also not saying multi-cultures are unsuccessful. This has nothing to do with safety or success, more efficiency gains and tolerance costs. I'm trying to raise a nuanced point and I went out of my way to say neither is better than the other. I think the efficiency gained depends on the culture gaining it. Japan has decided that they value safety. In Bangladesh there are probably different assumptions you can make. I don't know what they are and I don't want to speculate because I don't have any experience living there. edit: also wanted to add... even though Switzerland is ethnically diverse and speaks many different languages, I would still call it a mono-culture. The swiss are also sometimes criticized for being unique in their ways and resistant to change. Culture is not the same as race or language.
- mapgrep 16y ago
  "Please note that I'm not saying all monocultures are safe." Sure, but you attributed safety and other "efficiencies" in Japan to "monoculture." You also wrote, "Multiculturalism means lowest common denominator." Now you seem to be attributing safety in Japan not to monoculture but to /Japanese/ culture. Fair enough. In that case, what would happen if 10 million Japanese moved to Bangladesh, making it more multicultural? Would it be a less "efficient" culture? Would it be anchored by the "lowest common denominator," or would the nation improve through the infusion of new cultural values? It seems doubtful that, after conducting this thought experiment, most people could honestly conclude that, "Multiculturalism means lowest common denominator." It likewise seems hard to imagine Singapore in its present state -- including efficiency-wise -- if all those ethnic Chinese has never migrated there. The big context here is that you were defending Japan against criticism that it is a "closed off culture" and "too exclusive, too slow to change." That criticism is very well earned; for all its many virtues, there is a disturbing level of racism in Japan, against Koreans and Americans of black heritage (usually in military service there but not always, see http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101880815-149882,00.html http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101880815-...). There is also the matter of Japan's depressingly extended economic stagnation, going on 20 years old now, which is widely and credibly explained as being closely tied to an unwillingness to embrace new, often foreign values around business, corporate culture, risk taking, credit and competition. The one time I visited Japan, for two weeks, I conjured many positive words to describe the country. "Efficient" was not one of them. The grueling, sit-at-your desk 14 hour workdays that are de rigueur in Japan are not particularly efficient. The make-work jobs everywhere also seemed inefficient, like the guy in a uniform bowing in apology non-stop to people driving by a construction detour in the road, or the full time ticket taker/thanker in the back of the bus who collected my payment stub. The many ritual greetings and apologies also did not seem efficient. I have a hard time seeing how multiculturalism would not ENHANCE Japan's efficiency -- and economy. Update: "The swiss are also sometimes criticized for being unique in their ways and resistant to change. Culture is not the same as race or language." In that case, Brooklyn is a monoculture of New Yorkers, or Americans, and your original distinction between it and Japan is rather meaningless.