9 ms·

> I'm sure that there are other unintended consequences, such as higher rents, but who knows. That's not that easy. While Switzerland doesn't do rent control

> I'm sure that there are other unintended consequences, such as higher rents, but who knows. That's not that easy. While Switzerland doesn't do rent control per se and there can be regional differences depending on scarcity of real estate for rent a landlord is rather restricted in raising rent once a contract is signed. The only reasons why a rent can be raised are: - Additional investments into an apartment, but the raise needs to be in proportion to the investment - The bench mark mortgage rate goes up (on the other hand the rent needs to be lowered when the bench mark rate goes down, which is rarely the case nowadays, with a benchmark of 1.25%) - Inflation to a certain amount, but quite restricted Else than that rents can't just be raised. All that said and while I see where the decision is coming from I think it's a bit ludicrous and I don't think that many employees will actually try to get this benefit. To begin with: labor laws are more flexible than rental contract law. So there's always a threat of losing your job if you try to push it. But there's - at least in my opinion - an ethical edge. I, for one, felt highly privileged to be able to work from home and not being dependent on public transport during rush hour. In addition my employer invested a lot to get the infrastructure for thousands of people up to scratch in a very short time. My ethical compass would feel it's wrong to squeeze additional benefits from an arrangement, which potentially safes my life and from which I feel that my management puts a lot of trust in me and my colleagues.

sgc 6y ago
Curiosity questions: Do you know the specifics on the inflation based increases? Is it a common practice for landlords to have these increases?
- CaptainZapp 6y ago
  I hope your German is up to scratch :) [1] Basically: It's based on a consumer price index with the starting point of May 2000 (100%) and which is published every few years. A landlord can apply a maximum of 40% of the index increase in rent-increase, since the last time rent was adjusted. This is based on his equity investment into the object. Does this make sense? [1] https://www.mieterverband.ch/mv/mietrecht-beratung/ratgeber-mietrecht/glossar.html#Teuerung https://www.mieterverband.ch/mv/mietrecht-beratung/ratgeber-... edit: slight clarification
  - dahfizz 6y ago
    > A landlord can apply a maximum of 40% of the index increase in rent-increase So if inflation goes up by 10%, rent can only go up by 4%? Does that mean rent will be nearly free in 100+ years?
    - throwaway2048 6y ago
      If inflation is 10% a year for 100+ years you are going to have bigger problems than the rent 130 year old person is paying.
      - dahfizz 6y ago
        I chose that number for easy math. The point is that rent grows less than half as quick as inflation, which is definitely unsustainable.
        dahu2004 6y ago
        That is if you don't renovate nor modernise the building at all. It is an incentive for landlords to keep the building up to date. In your corner case scenario, an outdated 100 years old apartment would be pretty lame and worth its fair price of "almost free".
    - CaptainZapp 6y ago
      Essentially yes, that's correct.
samizdis 6y ago
> My ethical compass would feel it's wrong to squeeze additional benefits from an arrangement, which potentially saves my life and from which I feel that my management puts a lot of trust in me and my colleagues. Much respect to your principles. I agree entirely with your viewpoint.
Hokusai 6y ago
> My ethical compass would feel it's wrong to squeeze additional benefits from an arrangement I have seen others thinking like that, and then become very sore when they are fired in an economic downturn. They feel that "it is not fair" because they did as much as they could for their company, the company did not care. Is that different in Switzerland? Has it a similar culture to Japan where firing an employee is the last resource? Or is it more like other European countries were a simple merge or a decline in share value increase the possibility of being laid off? > So there's always a threat of losing your job if you try to push it. That is true for everything. Are you aiming on being always the cheaper employee in your company? That is an strategy that may work when there is lay offs, but I do not know much wealth you will accumulate in the long term with that strategy instead of trying to maximize your salary/benefits. I know that your attitude reduces salaries and reduces my and any other developer salary expectations, so maybe that makes me be extra doubtful of how good is your strategy for all the rest of us (or yourself). If you do not care for your well-being but you are willing to do sacrifices for your company, may I ask what sector your company works in? Maybe, is it an NGO?
- dahfizz 6y ago
  There is a (not so fine) line between looking after yourself and being a greedy jerk. I find that a little bit of grace goes a long way. Ask for a raise when you deserve it, absolutely. But if you ruthlessly try to extract every last penny from your employer, they will do the same to you. Have you ever browsed HN at work? Have you ever left just a few minutes before 5? I don't want my workplace to be a battleground over pennies. Treat your employer with some grace and they will do the same. Unless, of course, your employer is already a greedy asshole. Then you should change employers.
  - CaptainZapp 6y ago
    > Have you ever browsed HN at work? Have you ever left just a few minutes before 5? I have to admit: Guilty on both counts. But there's of course the other side. Where I went above and beyond to solve critical issues. And while we're at it: You succinctly explained so much better what I mean than me in my long diatribe. Thanks!
rb808 6y ago
> Else than that rents can't just be raised. Can you clarify that? To be clear its normal not to change rents during the contracted period. When contract expires what are the rules for permissable rent increases for the next contract?
- CaptainZapp 6y ago
  Rental contracts are usually not expiring (there are exceptions). Each party can terminate the contract usually twice a year with a three month notice period. Termination must follow certain formality and it's slightly lopside to the renters advantage in that a renter can challenge a termination, while the landlord can't. Rent increases after a contract is terminated are possible within reason and within fair market value of the rent.
ornornor 6y ago
> The bench mark mortgage rate goes up (on the other hand the rent needs to be lowered when the bench mark rate goes down, which is rarely the case nowadays, with a benchmark of 1.25%) That rate just went down a couple months ago and most renters would be entitled to a rent reduction just by sending a registered letter to their landlord. Every one I know who did that for a 3% rent reduction as a result.
frandroid 6y ago
That sounds like rent control to me!

sgc 6y ago

Curiosity questions: Do you know the specifics on the inflation based increases? Is it a common practice for landlords to have these increases?

CaptainZapp 6y ago
I hope your German is up to scratch :) [1] Basically: It's based on a consumer price index with the starting point of May 2000 (100%) and which is published every few years. A landlord can apply a maximum of 40% of the index increase in rent-increase, since the last time rent was adjusted. This is based on his equity investment into the object. Does this make sense? [1] https://www.mieterverband.ch/mv/mietrecht-beratung/ratgeber-mietrecht/glossar.html#Teuerung https://www.mieterverband.ch/mv/mietrecht-beratung/ratgeber-... edit: slight clarification
- dahfizz 6y ago
  > A landlord can apply a maximum of 40% of the index increase in rent-increase So if inflation goes up by 10%, rent can only go up by 4%? Does that mean rent will be nearly free in 100+ years?
  - throwaway2048 6y ago
    If inflation is 10% a year for 100+ years you are going to have bigger problems than the rent 130 year old person is paying.
    - dahfizz 6y ago
      I chose that number for easy math. The point is that rent grows less than half as quick as inflation, which is definitely unsustainable.
      - dahu2004 6y ago
        That is if you don't renovate nor modernise the building at all. It is an incentive for landlords to keep the building up to date. In your corner case scenario, an outdated 100 years old apartment would be pretty lame and worth its fair price of "almost free".
  - CaptainZapp 6y ago
    Essentially yes, that's correct.

samizdis 6y ago

> My ethical compass would feel it's wrong to squeeze additional benefits from an arrangement, which potentially saves my life and from which I feel that my management puts a lot of trust in me and my colleagues. Much respect to your principles. I agree entirely with your viewpoint.

Hokusai 6y ago

> My ethical compass would feel it's wrong to squeeze additional benefits from an arrangement I have seen others thinking like that, and then become very sore when they are fired in an economic downturn. They feel that "it is not fair" because they did as much as they could for their company, the company did not care. Is that different in Switzerland? Has it a similar culture to Japan where firing an employee is the last resource? Or is it more like other European countries were a simple merge or a decline in share value increase the possibility of being laid off? > So there's always a threat of losing your job if you try to push it. That is true for everything. Are you aiming on being always the cheaper employee in your company? That is an strategy that may work when there is lay offs, but I do not know much wealth you will accumulate in the long term with that strategy instead of trying to maximize your salary/benefits. I know that your attitude reduces salaries and reduces my and any other developer salary expectations, so maybe that makes me be extra doubtful of how good is your strategy for all the rest of us (or yourself). If you do not care for your well-being but you are willing to do sacrifices for your company, may I ask what sector your company works in? Maybe, is it an NGO?

dahfizz 6y ago
There is a (not so fine) line between looking after yourself and being a greedy jerk. I find that a little bit of grace goes a long way. Ask for a raise when you deserve it, absolutely. But if you ruthlessly try to extract every last penny from your employer, they will do the same to you. Have you ever browsed HN at work? Have you ever left just a few minutes before 5? I don't want my workplace to be a battleground over pennies. Treat your employer with some grace and they will do the same. Unless, of course, your employer is already a greedy asshole. Then you should change employers.
- CaptainZapp 6y ago
  > Have you ever browsed HN at work? Have you ever left just a few minutes before 5? I have to admit: Guilty on both counts. But there's of course the other side. Where I went above and beyond to solve critical issues. And while we're at it: You succinctly explained so much better what I mean than me in my long diatribe. Thanks!

rb808 6y ago

> Else than that rents can't just be raised. Can you clarify that? To be clear its normal not to change rents during the contracted period. When contract expires what are the rules for permissable rent increases for the next contract?

CaptainZapp 6y ago
Rental contracts are usually not expiring (there are exceptions). Each party can terminate the contract usually twice a year with a three month notice period. Termination must follow certain formality and it's slightly lopside to the renters advantage in that a renter can challenge a termination, while the landlord can't. Rent increases after a contract is terminated are possible within reason and within fair market value of the rent.

ornornor 6y ago

> The bench mark mortgage rate goes up (on the other hand the rent needs to be lowered when the bench mark rate goes down, which is rarely the case nowadays, with a benchmark of 1.25%) That rate just went down a couple months ago and most renters would be entitled to a rent reduction just by sending a registered letter to their landlord. Every one I know who did that for a 3% rent reduction as a result.

frandroid 6y ago

That sounds like rent control to me!