3 ms·

the timely object lesson of America's ridiculously inferior health care infrastructure is on full display globally right now The US is currently expected to ha

by harryh 6y ago

the timely object lesson of America's ridiculously inferior health care infrastructure is on full display globally right now The US is currently expected to have fewer per capita deaths from COVID19 than the UK, France, Spain, Italy & Sweden. See: https://covid19.healthdata.org/ https://covid19.healthdata.org/

raydev 6y ago
Looks like May 14 and later are still projections. It's now May 25. Given the spikes we've seen since states have started reopening, I'd want to see more up-to-date stats.
- harryh 6y ago
  I certainly agree that predictions are hard. And things could go in another direction. I'm just saying that the progress of the disease to date has not been an "object lesson of America's ridiculously inferior health care infrastructure."
  - KirinDave 6y ago
    It's outrageous, bordering on disingenuous, to compare anyone to Italy and Sweden and go, "See? Your health care infrastructure isn't so bad." Sweden deliberately elected not to use their infrastructure. Italy was the first critical European outbreak and their difficulties were information most other nations had. Why not look at South Korea or Mongolia? You know, actual success stories.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      You're mixing up two very different things. When you talk about Sanders and "health care infrastructure" people naturally assume you're talking about hospitals, insurance coverage, etc. That naturally raises the response of "well, Italy has socialized medicine, like Sanders wants, and that hasn't really helped it." South Korea's success does not have anything to do with left versus right--which is the topic at hand--or even really health care infrastructure. South Korea has experience dealing with respiratory virus outbreaks from China. It also has a population that is able to follow instructions and defer to authority, unlike people in western countries. Comparisons of the US to South Korea or Japan are "outrageous, bordering on disingenuous." In terms of social organization and ability to get things done, comparing New York City to Italy is actually very generous.
      - KirinDave 6y ago
        > You're mixing up two very different things. When you talk about Sanders and "health care infrastructure" people naturally assume you're talking about hospitals, insurance coverage, etc. That naturally raises the response of "well, Italy has socialized medicine, like Sanders wants, and that hasn't really helped it." Quite the opposite. You're the one doing that. I didn't name specific mechanisms and instead said "infrastructure" precisely to avoid this conversation. It doesn't matter how it's implemented; what matters is that effective medical care and clear information can reach citizens in times of crisis. All the examples folks have named have clearly shown a total failure to do this. So despite how many great resources they may have amassed, they could not mobilize that into an effective civic infrastructure. You're the one who wants to argue about socialized medicine. From the look of it, that's because you want to gloss over the profound failure of the US to do anything resembling a credible disaster response or address the profound inequalities that exist in American health care. > South Korea's success does not have anything to do with left versus right I agree! > which is the topic at hand No, the topic is, "Is Rogan a reactionary?" The answer there is yes, and even recently he's been sympathetic to the ludicrous claims that doing nothing is a reasonable strategy during this pandemic. The man is a conspiracy theorist. He has been in the past and he'll continue to be so in the future because he's a reactionary and that's how they operate. > South Korea has experience dealing with respiratory virus outbreaks from China. It also has a population that is able to follow instructions and defer to authority, unlike people in western countries. South Korea had to enact an emergency law letting cities detain people for violating stay at home and mask orders because compliance was bad. I don't know why you think these pacific asian counties are "obedient" but that's... Not a good characterization. I will follow the site guidelines and assume you have an unconscious bias there as opposed to an active one. > Comparisons of the US to South Korea or Japan are "outrageous, bordering on disingenuous." In terms of social organization and ability to get things done, comparing New York City to Italy is actually very generous. New York was a worse individual outbreak than any Italian city from the last numbers I saw, so doesn't this invalidate harryh's comparison?
JSavageOne 6y ago
NYC has been hit the hardest in the world, there weren't enough masks and ventilators, and testing wasn't available except to those in the most dire conditions (despite what the politicians claimed). Also I don't think it's a fair comparison to compare the entire countries given the enormous size differences, the drastically lower population density of the U.S. (outside NYC), and again the lack of testing which is definitely drastically underestimating the real amount. Also the bigger problem in the U.S. is that tens of millions are uninsured and/or have health plans tied to jobs that they lost, have no sick leave, and are criminally overcharged for basic health services leading to medical disaster being the #1 cause of bankruptcy. This kind of precarity and suffering isn't captured in coronavirus case statistics.
KirinDave 6y ago
We'll need to wait and see for data on UK and France. Those countries certainly botched up their handling similarly (although not quite as long as we have). Comparing us to Sweden (which has essentially elected to do nothing at all except politely suggest large gathering should be cancelled and decline to enforce that suggestion) or Italy (the first European pandemic outbreak site, with a large population of older people who cohabitate with younger families, and extremely dense outbreak zones)seems like a low enough bar to be called "failure" given the economic resources the US has at its disposal.

by harryh 6y ago

raydev 6y ago

Looks like May 14 and later are still projections. It's now May 25. Given the spikes we've seen since states have started reopening, I'd want to see more up-to-date stats.

harryh 6y ago
I certainly agree that predictions are hard. And things could go in another direction. I'm just saying that the progress of the disease to date has not been an "object lesson of America's ridiculously inferior health care infrastructure."
- KirinDave 6y ago
  It's outrageous, bordering on disingenuous, to compare anyone to Italy and Sweden and go, "See? Your health care infrastructure isn't so bad." Sweden deliberately elected not to use their infrastructure. Italy was the first critical European outbreak and their difficulties were information most other nations had. Why not look at South Korea or Mongolia? You know, actual success stories.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    You're mixing up two very different things. When you talk about Sanders and "health care infrastructure" people naturally assume you're talking about hospitals, insurance coverage, etc. That naturally raises the response of "well, Italy has socialized medicine, like Sanders wants, and that hasn't really helped it." South Korea's success does not have anything to do with left versus right--which is the topic at hand--or even really health care infrastructure. South Korea has experience dealing with respiratory virus outbreaks from China. It also has a population that is able to follow instructions and defer to authority, unlike people in western countries. Comparisons of the US to South Korea or Japan are "outrageous, bordering on disingenuous." In terms of social organization and ability to get things done, comparing New York City to Italy is actually very generous.
    - KirinDave 6y ago
      > You're mixing up two very different things. When you talk about Sanders and "health care infrastructure" people naturally assume you're talking about hospitals, insurance coverage, etc. That naturally raises the response of "well, Italy has socialized medicine, like Sanders wants, and that hasn't really helped it." Quite the opposite. You're the one doing that. I didn't name specific mechanisms and instead said "infrastructure" precisely to avoid this conversation. It doesn't matter how it's implemented; what matters is that effective medical care and clear information can reach citizens in times of crisis. All the examples folks have named have clearly shown a total failure to do this. So despite how many great resources they may have amassed, they could not mobilize that into an effective civic infrastructure. You're the one who wants to argue about socialized medicine. From the look of it, that's because you want to gloss over the profound failure of the US to do anything resembling a credible disaster response or address the profound inequalities that exist in American health care. > South Korea's success does not have anything to do with left versus right I agree! > which is the topic at hand No, the topic is, "Is Rogan a reactionary?" The answer there is yes, and even recently he's been sympathetic to the ludicrous claims that doing nothing is a reasonable strategy during this pandemic. The man is a conspiracy theorist. He has been in the past and he'll continue to be so in the future because he's a reactionary and that's how they operate. > South Korea has experience dealing with respiratory virus outbreaks from China. It also has a population that is able to follow instructions and defer to authority, unlike people in western countries. South Korea had to enact an emergency law letting cities detain people for violating stay at home and mask orders because compliance was bad. I don't know why you think these pacific asian counties are "obedient" but that's... Not a good characterization. I will follow the site guidelines and assume you have an unconscious bias there as opposed to an active one. > Comparisons of the US to South Korea or Japan are "outrageous, bordering on disingenuous." In terms of social organization and ability to get things done, comparing New York City to Italy is actually very generous. New York was a worse individual outbreak than any Italian city from the last numbers I saw, so doesn't this invalidate harryh's comparison?

JSavageOne 6y ago

NYC has been hit the hardest in the world, there weren't enough masks and ventilators, and testing wasn't available except to those in the most dire conditions (despite what the politicians claimed). Also I don't think it's a fair comparison to compare the entire countries given the enormous size differences, the drastically lower population density of the U.S. (outside NYC), and again the lack of testing which is definitely drastically underestimating the real amount. Also the bigger problem in the U.S. is that tens of millions are uninsured and/or have health plans tied to jobs that they lost, have no sick leave, and are criminally overcharged for basic health services leading to medical disaster being the #1 cause of bankruptcy. This kind of precarity and suffering isn't captured in coronavirus case statistics.

KirinDave 6y ago

We'll need to wait and see for data on UK and France. Those countries certainly botched up their handling similarly (although not quite as long as we have). Comparing us to Sweden (which has essentially elected to do nothing at all except politely suggest large gathering should be cancelled and decline to enforce that suggestion) or Italy (the first European pandemic outbreak site, with a large population of older people who cohabitate with younger families, and extremely dense outbreak zones)seems like a low enough bar to be called "failure" given the economic resources the US has at its disposal.