6 ms·

From Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!; Feynman and a colleague are staying at a traditional Japanese hotel in Kyoto: The next morning the young woman taking

by tc 16y ago

From Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!; Feynman and a colleague are staying at a traditional Japanese hotel in Kyoto: The next morning the young woman taking care of our room fixes the bath, which was right in our room. Sometime later she returns with a tray to deliver breakfast. I'm partly dressed. She turns to me and says, politely, "Ohayo, gozai masu," which means, "Good morning." Pais is just coming out of the bath, sopping wet and completely nude. She turns to him and with equal composure says, "Ohayo, gozai masu ," and puts the tray down for us. Pais looks at me and says, "God, are we uncivilized!" We realized that in America if the maid was delivering breakfast and the guy's standing there, stark naked, there would be little screams and a big fuss. But in Japan they were completely used to it, and we felt that they were much more advanced and civilized about those things than we were.

StavrosK 16y ago
I came here to quote Feynman too, but a different part: This question of trying to figure out whether a book is good or bad by looking at it carefully or by taking the reports of a lot of people who looked at it carelessly is like this famous old problem: Nobody was permitted to see the Emperor of China, and the question was, What is the length of the Emperor of China’s nose? To find out, you go all over the country asking people what they think the length of the Emperor of China’s nose is, and you average it. And that would be very “accurate” because you averaged so many people. But it’s no way to find anything out; when you have a very wide range of people who contribute without looking carefully at it, you don’t improve your knowledge of the situation by averaging. It seems to me that they asked a bunch of people in the US why they think there is no looting in Japan...
- jerf 16y ago
  It strikes me as a theory with very poor explanatory power. We've seen many crises in the US as well, and Katrina was an exception. There have been a couple of others within my lifetime, but it's not politically correct to point out what similarities they may have. (I suppose I should point out this isn't a veiled reference to race, it's actually 100% cultural, but it's still not politically correct to discuss.) It is true in the US we always have to be at least a bit worried about looting, we can't quite completely write it off, but in general it doesn't happen, and we do have a very loose society by comparison to Japan's. Whatever the determining factor is, that is not it, at least not directly.
  - StavrosK 16y ago
    I think these sorts of occurrences have very strong group effects. If a few people start looting, soon many others will follow, even if they wouldn't really start otherwise. It may be that, in the case of Katrina, there just happened to be those few people who would start the looting.
  - bilbo0s 16y ago
    Sorry, not trying to anger anyone or anything, I am genuinely interested. Where in the US was there a natural disaster of significant scale where there was no looting? I'm actually from Wisconsin, but was living in Cedar Rapids during the floods, and there was looting there. My neighbor was the cop chasing these guys down. I am just curious how other communities were able to avoid looting. BTW, Cedar Rapids is in Iowa.
    - ctdonath 16y ago
      http://www.sanitaryum.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/You-loot-we-shoot.jpg http://www.sanitaryum.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/You-loo...
    - coconutrandom 16y ago
      Not a disaster quite, but in Houston everyone evacuated from the hurricane and no one I knew reported any looting happening.
      - dctoedt 16y ago
        And people turned out to help, first to clean up their own blocks, then to help with citywide food banks.
    - penfro77 16y ago
      I'm from Cedar Rapids as well. You really need to qualify the claim there was looting in CR. The term is rather loaded and conjures visions of angry Iowans raiding the local Casey's on John Deeres. The burglary rates did rise somewhat; but there was definitely not a feeling on lawlessness or looting. During the height of the flood, thousands of citizens from across the city helped sandbag. The only thing that saved the last remaining water pumping station was a concerted effort to build a large sandbag wall against the Cedar River. After the waters receded many groups helped clean up countless houses in the hard-hit areas. While I wouldn't say we have quite the serene calm of the Japanese, I think communities in the United States still can effectively work together.
- funthree 16y ago
  >when you have a very wide range of people who contribute without looking carefully at it, you don’t improve your knowledge of the situation by averaging. Modern democracy, anyone?
donw 16y ago
(I know the excerpt is from the book, but I feel compelled to respond). No, they're just different. Better in some ways, worse in others. If I had to summarize Japan in one word, it would be 'harmony', or 'Wa' (和). People here don't rock the boat, and don't want to upset the status quo. The few that do find themselves more often than not pushed to the bottom of society. Because of this, kids go through twelve years of indoctrination, where they learn to think, speak, and act like a unit. They emerge from this into a four-year vacation (university) where very little is asked of them, after which it's expected that you will either become a researcher, or put on a suit and become a salaryman. The Japanese system is great in times of crisis. It sucks if you want to start a company, or if you've got a startup and want to hire employees.
nandemo 16y ago
Times have changed. Please don't try to reproduce that in an upscale hotel in Tokyo. They'll just call security (I've heard the story in first-hand).
- angus77 16y ago
  Why would they call security for you being naked in your own room?
  - nandemo 16y ago
    The story is that a trader working for one of the big foreign banks was staying at one of the top hotels, and would repeatedly call for room service and be stark naked when the (female) staff came in. I might be wrong about them calling security, I think they just told the bank they wouldn't accept reservations for that trader anymore.
    - angus77 16y ago
      Well, you have to admit that story is quite different from Feynman's, and has nothing to do with "the times" changing.
- lurker14 16y ago
  Your explanation below does not support the claim you make here. Politely disregarding an unintentional exposure is rather different from being perved at repeatedly by a sexual predator.
kymmx 16y ago
They don't feel embarrased if naked public, at least until sometime in twentieth when they finally prohibited child porns. They still have public spas that allow both men and women in one tub. I don't think your story represents Japanese people's personality regarding not looting. Read <The Chrysanthemum and the Sword: Patterns of Japanese Culture>.
- BerislavLopac 16y ago
  "They still have public spas that allow both men and women in one tub." What do you mean "allow"? Where I live (Europe) there are no restrictions in spas, and people can sit in tubs in any combinations they want...
  - Natsu 16y ago
    He means that they have mixed bathing, so there's no men's and women's side of the onsen and so everyone goes into the same bath, whether they know each other or not. There are other arrangements, too, though. In addition to simply splitting the onsen between a men's side and a women's side, they can also change from one to the other, so you can have mixed bathing later in the night, while being split the rest of the time.
- saint-loup 16y ago
  ... A book written sixty years ago with war prisoners interviews as material. A great book, but not really the state of art. (I'm afraid I've got no better advice.)
vacri 16y ago
A foreign minister that calls gang rapists "virile" and all sorts of extremely mysoginistic pop culture suggests not that "the Japanese are so civilised", only that they are merely different. White friends of mine recall looking for a flat in Japan and being constantly rejected with "you're white, we don't lease to whites", which is not a problem there. There are second-generation Koreans living in Japan who can't get citizenship or the vote. Japan is an awesome place and the people are very different to a great many other places, but can we keep the cultural cringe to a minimum? I also find it interesting in the story that there is no mention of Feynman making a fuss about a colleague being stark naked in the same room. Does this mean he's also much more advanced and civilised? Why doesn't Fernman mention this; why is it beyond notice? Why is the maid's lack of reaction that much more noteworthy than his own lack of reaction?
- ayanami 16y ago
  I'm sorry,but let me point out one thing. >>There are second-generation Koreans living in Japan who can't get citizenship or the vote. It's not about discrimination why Koreans are not becoming Japanese citizen, but it is their choices. Because Koreans in Japan have privileges and immunities which people with Japanese citizenship or other nationalities don't have.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    Could you explain the "privileges and immunities"?
- jhamburger 16y ago
  all sorts of extremely mysoginistic pop culture suggests not that "the Japanese are so civilised", only that they are merely different. It's interesting that sexual violence strikes such a chord with us westerners, but we think nothing of glamorizing gratuitous, sadistic physical violence. We have a popular television series where the hero is a psychopath serial killer with a heart of gold. In some of the Hannibal Lecter movies, Hannibal was arguably portrayed as a hero and he cannibalized people!
saidulislam 16y ago
eh... we cannot characterize this stuff as civilized or uncivilized. It's just different from our(US) way of doing things. Have you used their public bathrooms or restrooms? It feels very very awkward. I don't like it but I wouldn't call it uncivilized. The way we live together here without marriage and stuff is viewed as uncivilized by most of the world.

by tc 16y ago

StavrosK 16y ago

I came here to quote Feynman too, but a different part: This question of trying to figure out whether a book is good or bad by looking at it carefully or by taking the reports of a lot of people who looked at it carelessly is like this famous old problem: Nobody was permitted to see the Emperor of China, and the question was, What is the length of the Emperor of China’s nose? To find out, you go all over the country asking people what they think the length of the Emperor of China’s nose is, and you average it. And that would be very “accurate” because you averaged so many people. But it’s no way to find anything out; when you have a very wide range of people who contribute without looking carefully at it, you don’t improve your knowledge of the situation by averaging. It seems to me that they asked a bunch of people in the US why they think there is no looting in Japan...

jerf 16y ago
It strikes me as a theory with very poor explanatory power. We've seen many crises in the US as well, and Katrina was an exception. There have been a couple of others within my lifetime, but it's not politically correct to point out what similarities they may have. (I suppose I should point out this isn't a veiled reference to race, it's actually 100% cultural, but it's still not politically correct to discuss.) It is true in the US we always have to be at least a bit worried about looting, we can't quite completely write it off, but in general it doesn't happen, and we do have a very loose society by comparison to Japan's. Whatever the determining factor is, that is not it, at least not directly.
- StavrosK 16y ago
  I think these sorts of occurrences have very strong group effects. If a few people start looting, soon many others will follow, even if they wouldn't really start otherwise. It may be that, in the case of Katrina, there just happened to be those few people who would start the looting.
- bilbo0s 16y ago
  Sorry, not trying to anger anyone or anything, I am genuinely interested. Where in the US was there a natural disaster of significant scale where there was no looting? I'm actually from Wisconsin, but was living in Cedar Rapids during the floods, and there was looting there. My neighbor was the cop chasing these guys down. I am just curious how other communities were able to avoid looting. BTW, Cedar Rapids is in Iowa.
  - ctdonath 16y ago
    http://www.sanitaryum.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/You-loot-we-shoot.jpg http://www.sanitaryum.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/You-loo...
  - coconutrandom 16y ago
    Not a disaster quite, but in Houston everyone evacuated from the hurricane and no one I knew reported any looting happening.
    - dctoedt 16y ago
      And people turned out to help, first to clean up their own blocks, then to help with citywide food banks.
  - penfro77 16y ago
    I'm from Cedar Rapids as well. You really need to qualify the claim there was looting in CR. The term is rather loaded and conjures visions of angry Iowans raiding the local Casey's on John Deeres. The burglary rates did rise somewhat; but there was definitely not a feeling on lawlessness or looting. During the height of the flood, thousands of citizens from across the city helped sandbag. The only thing that saved the last remaining water pumping station was a concerted effort to build a large sandbag wall against the Cedar River. After the waters receded many groups helped clean up countless houses in the hard-hit areas. While I wouldn't say we have quite the serene calm of the Japanese, I think communities in the United States still can effectively work together.
funthree 16y ago
>when you have a very wide range of people who contribute without looking carefully at it, you don’t improve your knowledge of the situation by averaging. Modern democracy, anyone?

donw 16y ago

(I know the excerpt is from the book, but I feel compelled to respond). No, they're just different. Better in some ways, worse in others. If I had to summarize Japan in one word, it would be 'harmony', or 'Wa' (和). People here don't rock the boat, and don't want to upset the status quo. The few that do find themselves more often than not pushed to the bottom of society. Because of this, kids go through twelve years of indoctrination, where they learn to think, speak, and act like a unit. They emerge from this into a four-year vacation (university) where very little is asked of them, after which it's expected that you will either become a researcher, or put on a suit and become a salaryman. The Japanese system is great in times of crisis. It sucks if you want to start a company, or if you've got a startup and want to hire employees.

nandemo 16y ago

Times have changed. Please don't try to reproduce that in an upscale hotel in Tokyo. They'll just call security (I've heard the story in first-hand).

angus77 16y ago
Why would they call security for you being naked in your own room?
- nandemo 16y ago
  The story is that a trader working for one of the big foreign banks was staying at one of the top hotels, and would repeatedly call for room service and be stark naked when the (female) staff came in. I might be wrong about them calling security, I think they just told the bank they wouldn't accept reservations for that trader anymore.
  - angus77 16y ago
    Well, you have to admit that story is quite different from Feynman's, and has nothing to do with "the times" changing.
lurker14 16y ago
Your explanation below does not support the claim you make here. Politely disregarding an unintentional exposure is rather different from being perved at repeatedly by a sexual predator.

kymmx 16y ago

They don't feel embarrased if naked public, at least until sometime in twentieth when they finally prohibited child porns. They still have public spas that allow both men and women in one tub. I don't think your story represents Japanese people's personality regarding not looting. Read <The Chrysanthemum and the Sword: Patterns of Japanese Culture>.

BerislavLopac 16y ago
"They still have public spas that allow both men and women in one tub." What do you mean "allow"? Where I live (Europe) there are no restrictions in spas, and people can sit in tubs in any combinations they want...
- Natsu 16y ago
  He means that they have mixed bathing, so there's no men's and women's side of the onsen and so everyone goes into the same bath, whether they know each other or not. There are other arrangements, too, though. In addition to simply splitting the onsen between a men's side and a women's side, they can also change from one to the other, so you can have mixed bathing later in the night, while being split the rest of the time.
saint-loup 16y ago
... A book written sixty years ago with war prisoners interviews as material. A great book, but not really the state of art. (I'm afraid I've got no better advice.)

vacri 16y ago

A foreign minister that calls gang rapists "virile" and all sorts of extremely mysoginistic pop culture suggests not that "the Japanese are so civilised", only that they are merely different. White friends of mine recall looking for a flat in Japan and being constantly rejected with "you're white, we don't lease to whites", which is not a problem there. There are second-generation Koreans living in Japan who can't get citizenship or the vote. Japan is an awesome place and the people are very different to a great many other places, but can we keep the cultural cringe to a minimum? I also find it interesting in the story that there is no mention of Feynman making a fuss about a colleague being stark naked in the same room. Does this mean he's also much more advanced and civilised? Why doesn't Fernman mention this; why is it beyond notice? Why is the maid's lack of reaction that much more noteworthy than his own lack of reaction?

ayanami 16y ago
I'm sorry,but let me point out one thing. >>There are second-generation Koreans living in Japan who can't get citizenship or the vote. It's not about discrimination why Koreans are not becoming Japanese citizen, but it is their choices. Because Koreans in Japan have privileges and immunities which people with Japanese citizenship or other nationalities don't have.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  Could you explain the "privileges and immunities"?
jhamburger 16y ago
all sorts of extremely mysoginistic pop culture suggests not that "the Japanese are so civilised", only that they are merely different. It's interesting that sexual violence strikes such a chord with us westerners, but we think nothing of glamorizing gratuitous, sadistic physical violence. We have a popular television series where the hero is a psychopath serial killer with a heart of gold. In some of the Hannibal Lecter movies, Hannibal was arguably portrayed as a hero and he cannibalized people!

saidulislam 16y ago

eh... we cannot characterize this stuff as civilized or uncivilized. It's just different from our(US) way of doing things. Have you used their public bathrooms or restrooms? It feels very very awkward. I don't like it but I wouldn't call it uncivilized. The way we live together here without marriage and stuff is viewed as uncivilized by most of the world.