4 ms·

What's pushing China from hiding their capacities and biding their time? Why push the world on this now than wait until 2047? Awfully, it looks like Xi thinks C

by 2019-nCoV 6y ago

What's pushing China from hiding their capacities and biding their time? Why push the world on this now than wait until 2047? Awfully, it looks like Xi thinks China's time has come.

joaomacp 6y ago
He knows China is powerful enough to do this without meaningful consequences. Taiwan not yet, but soon.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > He knows China is powerful enough to do this without meaningful consequences. Taiwan not yet, but soon. Unlike Hong Kong, Taiwan has (thinly veiled) US military Support [1] that would put China in defacto WWIII territory should an attack occur--after this COVID coverup, the CCP and Xi are persona non grata on the international stage. If anything I hope the people of the Mainland realize the dystopia they have created (some do, most are too conditioned) and revolt before that happens as the CCP seems amendment for a suicidal act if they continue with such brazen violence in the area. They've already pissed off every neighbor in the South China Sea which is essentially opening the doors for more US military bases and interventionism--which I abhor, but recognize as a reality. 1: https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/us-military-support-taiwan-whats-changed-under-trump https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/us-military-support-taiwan-what...
Robin_Message 6y ago
I wonder if they worry about other areas of China asking for or demanding the same freedoms and democracy as Hong Kong. "Because it used to be a British colony" doesn't feel like a good justification for massive variations in internal political systems for the people on the wrong side of the border.
- dirtyid 6y ago
  Only HK nativism, violence and separatism gets filtered through domestic Chinese media. What most mainlanders see are dumb kids protecting their "privileges" by burning down their own city and appealing to foreign powers to intervene (aka treason). The protests has staunched appetite for western values and systems in the mainland, solidified by how poor most western countries have responded to covid. I guess framed that way it's sad that mainlanders would rather strip HK freedoms than ask for their own, but the reality is, HK protesters are viewed as exploiting privileges bestowed through lottery of birth, to undermine the rest of the country, so maybe such privileges are not worth having en-mass in the first place. The justification is HK has been dragging their feet on implementing required National Security legislation. There was no set deadline, I think it was left open ended to easy transition. But it's been 23 years. Despite efforts ongoing for the past 10, now the sentiment at the top is they focused too long on 2 systems instead of 1 country. For the CCP, it's ridiculous they have no extradition process with a region under it's control, especially for recent "anti-state" actions. This was recognized a long time ago, hence the efforts at patriotic education and national security law ~10 years ago because the idea of identity and cultural divergence was a risk to longterm integration. Same with Uyghurs and Tibetans. Best to crush the lost generation now and start again.
  - Melting_Harps 6y ago
    > solidified by how poor most western countries have responded to covid. As opposed to mainland efforts, which include a masse invasion of mainlanders into Hong Kong despite local opposition and continued warnings by Health Professionals? China was the WORST of all for letting this spread in the first place rather then letting it remain localized in Wuhan when they knew of its outbreaks. Arresting and disappearing physicians and journalists who tried to warn the World in the process, and lying via the WHO and continuing to lie about the severity of COVID, as seen with the most recent outbreak of infections [1]. I grant you most Western nations policies were too little, too late by January 2020 as vectors from Wuhan had flown all over the World, but this is a pandemic caused directly by CCP policy to lie and manipulate and outright hijack the narrative of its cause and origin, which lies solely with China. And the blame lies solely on them for this occurring, which in my view having followed the Hong Kong protests since 2014 is analogous to Biological Warfare and they should be tried for Crimes Against Humanity. > For the CCP, it's ridiculous they have no extradition process with a region under it's control, especially for recent "anti-state" actions. This was recognized a long time ago, hence the efforts at patriotic education and national security law ~10 years ago because the idea of identity and cultural divergence was a risk to longterm integration. Same with Uyghurs and Tibetans. How is a supposed autonomous region supposed to conduct itself when its citizens can be detained for the same absurd violations that occur on the mainland? Which include disrespecting Xi on the internet? Especially for a region with Western Values and customs pertaining to Free Speech? > Best to crush the lost generation now and start again. What you call 'patriotic education' is Soviet Union style brainwashing and conditioning for State worship. Are you seriously advocating for masse genocide and internment prisons to usher in this supposed Glory age for the CCP? I'd call you a Wumao but you are straight up a CCP indoctrinated fool if you are saying what I think you are.
dirtyid 6y ago
Because Chinese capacity was recognized early under Obama, who "pushed" first with pivot to Asia. There was acknowledgement that China could potential competitor, sick Olympics 2008 followed by Chinese growth bailing world out of during GFC same year. Incidentally this was when China first realized their own power levels / brokenness of US system. This was under Hu. First Obama term 2009, Secretary of State Hilary Clinton recognize that China as US most important relationship of the new century, that Chinese raise need not be treated as an "adversary" - implicitly acknowledging that China as potential future competitor. This was followed by US increasing and strengthening Asia-Pacific military deployment forging alliances, selling arms to Taiwan to box in China behind first island chain. Xi inherited this problem in 2013. The response - South China Sea build up in 2015. BTW China was the last party out of 6 claimants to build land and militarize the region. It was reactionary. Similar to how US pushed NATO to undermine Russian peripheries, so byebye Ukraine. Ditto with SCS. Then you have TPP and technological competition after announcement of Made in China 2025 which was met by containment efforts on tech front. Queue Trump + Bannon + bolton + Pompeo (all Chinahawks): tradewar -> huawei -> hk -> xinjiang -> covid -> tawian -> tech coldwar. Reality is, US has been trying to contain China for over a decade now, it's merely very public and acrimonious under Trump admin because that's his style. I don't know if politburo thinks China's time has come, but never waste a good crisis. And it seems like US is committed to full blown containment, and the cost benefit analysis now of HK as financial instrument is superseded by HK being exploited to undermine the Chinese state. There's realist reasons to act sooner than later, HK protests have killed 1C2S and peaceful reunion with Taiwan already, at least for current generation. But reunion deadline is still 29 years away. A lot can happen during that time.
- mrcorona 6y ago
  >Reality is, US has been trying to contain China for over a decade now, it's merely very public and acrimonious under Trump admin because that's his style. Reality is, US has worked with the UK to contain China for almost 2 centuries. Much of the development and excess wealth in both countries is due to these actions.
me_me_me 6y ago
I don't think that Chinese party was pushing for that. I think it was local overzealous party apparatchiks that escalated the issue. But once escalated China will not back down as it would make them appear 'weak' so they have no choice but to push harder further escalating violence (although it appears that only pro-china side is using violence). This whole thing could be spun by china as "those poor HK'er taited by capitalism need some time to adjust and see why 'communism' is better way forward. Instead we have a serious violence brewing, and if Tienanmen was possible then anything is on the table. Other theory is that China is trying something akin to mega city in that area thats why they need total control and now.

What's pushing China from hiding their capacities and biding their time? Why push the world on this now than wait until 2047? Awfully, it looks like Xi thinks China's time has come.

joaomacp 6y ago

He knows China is powerful enough to do this without meaningful consequences. Taiwan not yet, but soon.

Melting_Harps 6y ago
> He knows China is powerful enough to do this without meaningful consequences. Taiwan not yet, but soon. Unlike Hong Kong, Taiwan has (thinly veiled) US military Support [1] that would put China in defacto WWIII territory should an attack occur--after this COVID coverup, the CCP and Xi are persona non grata on the international stage. If anything I hope the people of the Mainland realize the dystopia they have created (some do, most are too conditioned) and revolt before that happens as the CCP seems amendment for a suicidal act if they continue with such brazen violence in the area. They've already pissed off every neighbor in the South China Sea which is essentially opening the doors for more US military bases and interventionism--which I abhor, but recognize as a reality. 1: https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/us-military-support-taiwan-whats-changed-under-trump https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/us-military-support-taiwan-what...

Robin_Message 6y ago

I wonder if they worry about other areas of China asking for or demanding the same freedoms and democracy as Hong Kong. "Because it used to be a British colony" doesn't feel like a good justification for massive variations in internal political systems for the people on the wrong side of the border.

dirtyid 6y ago
Only HK nativism, violence and separatism gets filtered through domestic Chinese media. What most mainlanders see are dumb kids protecting their "privileges" by burning down their own city and appealing to foreign powers to intervene (aka treason). The protests has staunched appetite for western values and systems in the mainland, solidified by how poor most western countries have responded to covid. I guess framed that way it's sad that mainlanders would rather strip HK freedoms than ask for their own, but the reality is, HK protesters are viewed as exploiting privileges bestowed through lottery of birth, to undermine the rest of the country, so maybe such privileges are not worth having en-mass in the first place. The justification is HK has been dragging their feet on implementing required National Security legislation. There was no set deadline, I think it was left open ended to easy transition. But it's been 23 years. Despite efforts ongoing for the past 10, now the sentiment at the top is they focused too long on 2 systems instead of 1 country. For the CCP, it's ridiculous they have no extradition process with a region under it's control, especially for recent "anti-state" actions. This was recognized a long time ago, hence the efforts at patriotic education and national security law ~10 years ago because the idea of identity and cultural divergence was a risk to longterm integration. Same with Uyghurs and Tibetans. Best to crush the lost generation now and start again.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > solidified by how poor most western countries have responded to covid. As opposed to mainland efforts, which include a masse invasion of mainlanders into Hong Kong despite local opposition and continued warnings by Health Professionals? China was the WORST of all for letting this spread in the first place rather then letting it remain localized in Wuhan when they knew of its outbreaks. Arresting and disappearing physicians and journalists who tried to warn the World in the process, and lying via the WHO and continuing to lie about the severity of COVID, as seen with the most recent outbreak of infections [1]. I grant you most Western nations policies were too little, too late by January 2020 as vectors from Wuhan had flown all over the World, but this is a pandemic caused directly by CCP policy to lie and manipulate and outright hijack the narrative of its cause and origin, which lies solely with China. And the blame lies solely on them for this occurring, which in my view having followed the Hong Kong protests since 2014 is analogous to Biological Warfare and they should be tried for Crimes Against Humanity. > For the CCP, it's ridiculous they have no extradition process with a region under it's control, especially for recent "anti-state" actions. This was recognized a long time ago, hence the efforts at patriotic education and national security law ~10 years ago because the idea of identity and cultural divergence was a risk to longterm integration. Same with Uyghurs and Tibetans. How is a supposed autonomous region supposed to conduct itself when its citizens can be detained for the same absurd violations that occur on the mainland? Which include disrespecting Xi on the internet? Especially for a region with Western Values and customs pertaining to Free Speech? > Best to crush the lost generation now and start again. What you call 'patriotic education' is Soviet Union style brainwashing and conditioning for State worship. Are you seriously advocating for masse genocide and internment prisons to usher in this supposed Glory age for the CCP? I'd call you a Wumao but you are straight up a CCP indoctrinated fool if you are saying what I think you are.

dirtyid 6y ago

Because Chinese capacity was recognized early under Obama, who "pushed" first with pivot to Asia. There was acknowledgement that China could potential competitor, sick Olympics 2008 followed by Chinese growth bailing world out of during GFC same year. Incidentally this was when China first realized their own power levels / brokenness of US system. This was under Hu. First Obama term 2009, Secretary of State Hilary Clinton recognize that China as US most important relationship of the new century, that Chinese raise need not be treated as an "adversary" - implicitly acknowledging that China as potential future competitor. This was followed by US increasing and strengthening Asia-Pacific military deployment forging alliances, selling arms to Taiwan to box in China behind first island chain. Xi inherited this problem in 2013. The response - South China Sea build up in 2015. BTW China was the last party out of 6 claimants to build land and militarize the region. It was reactionary. Similar to how US pushed NATO to undermine Russian peripheries, so byebye Ukraine. Ditto with SCS. Then you have TPP and technological competition after announcement of Made in China 2025 which was met by containment efforts on tech front. Queue Trump + Bannon + bolton + Pompeo (all Chinahawks): tradewar -> huawei -> hk -> xinjiang -> covid -> tawian -> tech coldwar. Reality is, US has been trying to contain China for over a decade now, it's merely very public and acrimonious under Trump admin because that's his style. I don't know if politburo thinks China's time has come, but never waste a good crisis. And it seems like US is committed to full blown containment, and the cost benefit analysis now of HK as financial instrument is superseded by HK being exploited to undermine the Chinese state. There's realist reasons to act sooner than later, HK protests have killed 1C2S and peaceful reunion with Taiwan already, at least for current generation. But reunion deadline is still 29 years away. A lot can happen during that time.

mrcorona 6y ago
>Reality is, US has been trying to contain China for over a decade now, it's merely very public and acrimonious under Trump admin because that's his style. Reality is, US has worked with the UK to contain China for almost 2 centuries. Much of the development and excess wealth in both countries is due to these actions.

me_me_me 6y ago

I don't think that Chinese party was pushing for that. I think it was local overzealous party apparatchiks that escalated the issue. But once escalated China will not back down as it would make them appear 'weak' so they have no choice but to push harder further escalating violence (although it appears that only pro-china side is using violence). This whole thing could be spun by china as "those poor HK'er taited by capitalism need some time to adjust and see why 'communism' is better way forward. Instead we have a serious violence brewing, and if Tienanmen was possible then anything is on the table. Other theory is that China is trying something akin to mega city in that area thats why they need total control and now.