4 ms·

You're saying this like it's something new but _outsourcing_ has been a thing for decades. It has always been possible to get software built on the cheap abroad

by mantap 6y ago

You're saying this like it's something new but _outsourcing_ has been a thing for decades. It has always been possible to get software built on the cheap abroad. You get what you pay for.

yakshaving_jgt 6y ago
> You get what you pay for This is hardly the case, speaking from experience as someone who hires programmers around the world. There is no reason whatsoever why a programmer on $30k cannot compete in terms of productivity with a programmer on $300k.
- jasonkester 6y ago
  Thats the 90s outsourcing model in a nutshell. It fails over time because it relies on a constant stream of good developers who don't realise their market value. As soon as that guy realises he's worth $300k, he'll go get it on the open market and you'll need to find a new sucker. The industry already used up the whole of India in the early 00's doing this, and by now they've scraped the bucket all the way back to Iowa. The goal of the operation from our standpoint should be to get the rest of those remaining guys up to $300k. Not to resign ourselves to accepting $30k.
  - yakshaving_jgt 6y ago
    Why should that be the goal? Why $300k? That’s an enormous amount of money. Also, the labour market is far wider than just India. > As soon as that guy realises he's worth $300k, he'll go get it on the open market and you'll need to find a new sucker. That’s an incredibly patronising take. I know that many programmers take higher relative income and freedom in lieu of a higher absolute income and the lifestyle typically associated with it. Of course those people would rather take the $300k if they could work anywhere. That’s obvious. But who is offering that? Not FAANG, evidently.
  - ikeyany 6y ago
    Now the industry has access to talent from across the entire world, so perhaps the outsourcing model will come back. And these "suckers" are just applying for the best job they can land with their skills.
- JoshuaDavid 6y ago
  Can you point me to a consistent source of solid programmers who will accept $30k long term (keep in mind that hiring someone at $30k and having them quit after 6 months is probably worse than not hiring anyone at all) and produce as much as a $300k programmers? Though if you can do that you can also make a killing by setting up a software agency.
  - yakshaving_jgt 6y ago
    I’m not going to do that. I will say though, that such astronomical salaries are only really the norm in Silicon Valley. And with that salary, you have to deal with the entire lifestyle that goes along with it. Money isn’t everything, which many programmers recognise.
    - JoshuaDavid 6y ago
      I don't think salaries that high are the norm even in Silicon Valley, unless you're counting "someone was hired with X shares in the company vesting over 4 years as part of their comp package" when those shares were worth $120,000 over 4 years when they were hired but are now worth $800,000. Which, while nice, is more a case of "stocks go up sometimes" than "companies are intentionally paying enormous salaries for people without exceptional skills." Though I'm not actually in SV, and the last time I went on an interview circuit up there was 2015, so it's possible salaries have gone crazy since then.
- KoftaBob 6y ago
  If that were actually the case, there would be very very few programmers making $300k. Market forces (demand for talented software engineers) led to those high salaries. That's a tangible observation supporting the logic behind "you get what you pay for".
  - yakshaving_jgt 6y ago
    There are very few programmers making that kind of money, relatively speaking. SV salaries are a statistical outlier in the global market.
    - KoftaBob 6y ago
      In the global market, sure. American salaries in general for many fields are statistical outliers compared to the global market, even Europe. Within the US however, while SV salaries are the highest, that's not the only city with 6 figure salaries as the norm for software engineers. Places like NYC, Boston, and Seattle have been there for a while, and Austin/Chicago/LA are close to, if not already averaging that too. This is especially true if you work for one of the major tech companies in those cities. Go look at the salaries posted on www.levels.fyi in those cities and you'll see that SV is by no means an outlier when it comes to 6 figure salaries.

by mantap 6y ago

You're saying this like it's something new but _outsourcing_ has been a thing for decades. It has always been possible to get software built on the cheap abroad. You get what you pay for.

yakshaving_jgt 6y ago

> You get what you pay for This is hardly the case, speaking from experience as someone who hires programmers around the world. There is no reason whatsoever why a programmer on $30k cannot compete in terms of productivity with a programmer on $300k.

jasonkester 6y ago
Thats the 90s outsourcing model in a nutshell. It fails over time because it relies on a constant stream of good developers who don't realise their market value. As soon as that guy realises he's worth $300k, he'll go get it on the open market and you'll need to find a new sucker. The industry already used up the whole of India in the early 00's doing this, and by now they've scraped the bucket all the way back to Iowa. The goal of the operation from our standpoint should be to get the rest of those remaining guys up to $300k. Not to resign ourselves to accepting $30k.
- yakshaving_jgt 6y ago
  Why should that be the goal? Why $300k? That’s an enormous amount of money. Also, the labour market is far wider than just India. > As soon as that guy realises he's worth $300k, he'll go get it on the open market and you'll need to find a new sucker. That’s an incredibly patronising take. I know that many programmers take higher relative income and freedom in lieu of a higher absolute income and the lifestyle typically associated with it. Of course those people would rather take the $300k if they could work anywhere. That’s obvious. But who is offering that? Not FAANG, evidently.
- ikeyany 6y ago
  Now the industry has access to talent from across the entire world, so perhaps the outsourcing model will come back. And these "suckers" are just applying for the best job they can land with their skills.
JoshuaDavid 6y ago
Can you point me to a consistent source of solid programmers who will accept $30k long term (keep in mind that hiring someone at $30k and having them quit after 6 months is probably worse than not hiring anyone at all) and produce as much as a $300k programmers? Though if you can do that you can also make a killing by setting up a software agency.
- yakshaving_jgt 6y ago
  I’m not going to do that. I will say though, that such astronomical salaries are only really the norm in Silicon Valley. And with that salary, you have to deal with the entire lifestyle that goes along with it. Money isn’t everything, which many programmers recognise.
  - JoshuaDavid 6y ago
    I don't think salaries that high are the norm even in Silicon Valley, unless you're counting "someone was hired with X shares in the company vesting over 4 years as part of their comp package" when those shares were worth $120,000 over 4 years when they were hired but are now worth $800,000. Which, while nice, is more a case of "stocks go up sometimes" than "companies are intentionally paying enormous salaries for people without exceptional skills." Though I'm not actually in SV, and the last time I went on an interview circuit up there was 2015, so it's possible salaries have gone crazy since then.
KoftaBob 6y ago
If that were actually the case, there would be very very few programmers making $300k. Market forces (demand for talented software engineers) led to those high salaries. That's a tangible observation supporting the logic behind "you get what you pay for".
- yakshaving_jgt 6y ago
  There are very few programmers making that kind of money, relatively speaking. SV salaries are a statistical outlier in the global market.
  - KoftaBob 6y ago
    In the global market, sure. American salaries in general for many fields are statistical outliers compared to the global market, even Europe. Within the US however, while SV salaries are the highest, that's not the only city with 6 figure salaries as the norm for software engineers. Places like NYC, Boston, and Seattle have been there for a while, and Austin/Chicago/LA are close to, if not already averaging that too. This is especially true if you work for one of the major tech companies in those cities. Go look at the salaries posted on www.levels.fyi in those cities and you'll see that SV is by no means an outlier when it comes to 6 figure salaries.