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I may be the only person left who loves San Francisco. Just got back from biking from my house through Golden Gate Park past the De Young and Cal Academy to Cli

I may be the only person left who loves San Francisco. Just got back from biking from my house through Golden Gate Park past the De Young and Cal Academy to Cliff House and down Ocean Beach. There was sunshine and people were outside. In different circumstances, there are people dancing on roller skates, learning tango, and skateboarding. Near our house there is a great Russian Bakery, tons of Chinese restaurants on Clement, Green Apple Books, Irish Bars. Walk North and you are in the Presidio and see the Golden Gate Bridge. Walk West and you are at the Legion of Honor or Lands End and watching the sun set over the Ocean. Walk East and I can hit up a hip hop or funk night at the Boom Boom Room or go to the Fillmore. You can dance at Madrone Art Bar or see an indie rock show at the Independent on Divisadero. Walk a few blocks South and you are in the Panhandle walking by some beautiful Victorians, then stop and catch some jazz at Club Deluxe. Walk a little more and go up Corona Heights or Tank Hill and you have breathtaking panoramic views of the city. Or head down to some of the pubs in the Lower Haight. And that's just within a 2 mile radius. For some reason, everyone focuses on the Tenderloin and SoMa though. The city has major problems, but there is also so much to enjoy. I have made many interesting and creative friends here who are from all over the world. I get to work on mobile games, but there are many other opportunities around. Among my coworkers are digital artists and painters, musicians, engineers, hip hop dancers, drag show performers, people who party all night in the Castro, a muay Thai boxer, mixologists, and more interests than I can list. I lived in Seattle, Portland, and Austin over the previous 2 decades -- all great places -- but still find myself happier in SF.

harel 6y ago
I lived in San Francisco between 1998 to 2002 and loved it. In my memory it is a Fantastic city. However, almost all of my friends have left saying it has changed dramatically for the worst. I rather hold on to how I remember it, and really hope that when I visit again one day it will match up to how I remember it.
dlevine 6y ago
I agree with you. Having lived in a number of great cities over the years, San Francisco is my favorite. It's not perfect, but there are a lot of things to love, and being able to work remotely wouldn't cause me to move. Actually just got back from a very similar bike ride.
jypepin 6y ago
My wife is from the Bay Area or obviously biased, but same thing. I'm from France and we both lived is over 10 cities/countries combined (together and separately) and recently came back to the Bay Area "for good". Before coming back we tried pretty hard trying to find somewhere else we could go live (and be much wealthier, afford a bigger house, etc) but we couldn't and decided on going back to Oakland.
- klipt 6y ago
  Oakland is still more affordable, probably because the public schools aren't great and commute to the good jobs on the peninsula is pretty painful.
crimsonalucard1 6y ago
I mean that's great but you left out a lot of the bad parts. Human feces everywhere, homeless people, broken needles, expensive rent... I think south bay you get less of the above with better weather.
- drewcoo 6y ago
  And the baying tech workers!
- wiskinator 6y ago
  If you think 'homeless people' are one of the bad things, then I think you're part of the problem, and would politely ask you to help come up with a solution.
  - daseiner1 6y ago
    i would wager most would rank the worst homeless population in the country in terms of rampant drug abuse and severe mental illness an unqualified negative
  - Mehdi2277 6y ago
    You're aware around 90 percent of the bay area considers to homelessness to be a serious problem. Citation: https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/03/08/when-it-comes-to-the-homeless-the-bay-areas-compassion-has-a-limit/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/03/08/when-it-comes-to-the-... "89% of residents say homelessness is an extremely or very serious problem — up from 79% the year before"
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      Considering homelessness to be a serious problem and considering homeless people to be a problem are very different (and to some extent opposed) things. Advocates for homeless people think homelessness is a problem. People that oppose dealing with homelessness tend to portray homeless people as a problem.
charlesju 6y ago
Another one! I love the weather here too. That's my favorite part, no need for A/C or worry about the snow. I love the fresh fruits and vegetables and going to the farmer's markets to find what's in season. We're so close to everything that you can want to do in life, that I cannot imagine a better place to grow up or live.
cameronlpmoore 6y ago
I love SF as well! I've traveled around the world and lived in multiple US cities that many people consider nice/cool/fun, but SF is still my favorite city. I was in Golden Gate Park today as well and it never gets old - so beautiful, and perfect weather. The streets in my neighborhood are clean, the neighbors are all intelligent, fascinating older people, young families, and just generally really cool people. Granted I never go to the Tenderloin, SoMa, or the Financial District -- if that's your primary view of the city then I understand the distaste, but overall SF is a fantastic city if you can afford it.
- kbyatnal 6y ago
  thinking of making the move to SF soon - which neighborhood are you in?
121789 6y ago
Yeah everyone loves those things too, they just don't want to deal with the cost and quality of life from the homeless/drug problem. I walked up to beautiful Corona Heights today and saw all of the amazing views, but then I walked home past the ever-increasing numbers of tents popping up on the street to my overpriced apartment in the mission where I currently have to listen to one mentally disabled homeless person scream profanities at everyone around her. Sure you could move to a different neighborhood, but those problems are difficult to ignore.
- jhatemyjob 6y ago
  Dude you live in the mission, probably the most disgusting part of the entire bay area, other than maybe the bay itself. I didn't last a single week there Move to Noe Valley or Bernal heights
  - jonwalch 6y ago
    There are parts of the Mission that are extremely nice. The Tenderloin is far worse than the Mission and parts of SoMa rival the Mission for grossness.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - PopeDotNinja 6y ago
      On my morning walks in the TL, I had brieflly kepts stat on the poops per mile I counted. I decided it was too much work after I saw 3 poops on a single block.
  - wyclif 6y ago
    Yes, can confirm the Tenderloin is worse than the Mission. Take a walk down to Eddy & Leavenworth, especially right after all the homeless and drug abusers have cashed their disability cheques (or on the weekends) and try to walk down the sidewalk without being harassed or your nostrils assaulted by the acrid tang of human piss and fecal matter: https://youtu.be/KUtVz2fIhHM https://youtu.be/KUtVz2fIhHM
DoreenMichele 6y ago
When I got to visit SF, it was a lovely, magical city and it inspired me to buy $300 worth of books related to my interest in someday becoming a city planner (or something similar). The problem is I can't possibly afford to live there. If you can live there, cool. For many people, it's just too expensive to make it into a nice experience. All those restaurants nearby are only cool if you can afford the high cost of housing and have enough money leftover to still eat at restaurants without worrying that you are cutting your own throat in terms of retirement savings or something. In short, it's great if you are wealthy enough. It's not for most other people, even if they find parts of it enchanting.
- apoverton 6y ago
  Curious, what books did you buy? I’ve been getting interested in this sort of thing lately.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    I bought some book that was a bunch of excerpts from classic urban planning works. I bought a book called "Seeing like the state." I bought a book about the Clemente Course in Humanities (there is a website for this these days). I no doubt bought other stuff. I also enjoyed "How buildings learn" but I don't think I bought it that day. I run r/CitizenPlanners and there are some links there to videos and what not.
    - retsibsi 6y ago
      For anyone interested, Scott Alexander wrote a longish review of Seeing Like A State: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-like-a-state/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-lik... Personally I found the book a bit long and repetitive: although the examples were varied, each was used to restate the same basic point. But that may be my own problem. After all, if you're trying to support a generalisation using case studies, it's not enough to breeze through one or two and assure the reader that others exist; you need to go into detail about as many as you reasonably can.
  - 6y ago
rarecoil 6y ago
> I have made many interesting and creative friends here who are from all over the world. I get to work on mobile games, but there are many other opportunities around. Among my coworkers are digital artists and painters, musicians, engineers, hip hop dancers, drag show performers, people who party all night in the Castro, a muay Thai boxer, mixologists, and more interests than I can list. Being mostly in Seattle for about 6 years now, this is what I enjoyed the most about being based in SF and is what will likely make me return to it. Seattle feels to be a town now comprised of corporate campuses and the suburban neighborhoods in between. It's also great if you love outdoor hobbies, but I prefer the vibrance of cities. The creative culture here feels substantially more lacking than it is in SF, and it feels extremely challenging to make new friend that aren't in technology. Of course SF has its tech-bro startup culture; here it seems most people that live around me work for Microsoft, Amazon, or Facebook. At least there were easy outs in going to galleries or clubs or art/makerspaces or various meets for non-tech things in SF and I have never been able to find enough of those in the Seattle area. The COVID-19 crisis will likely choke them out further.
- akhilcacharya 6y ago
  > . At least there were easy outs in going to galleries or clubs or art/makerspaces or various meets for non-tech things in SF I hear the same thing about New York and to that I wonder: 1) Do people actually like these things 2) or are they a just a way to virtue signal their cosmopolitan bona fides to the other graduates of selective universities? Perhaps I'm just an unsophisticated public school grad, but I've never met anybody that actually takes part in these things even when they live in New York, etc.
  - rarecoil 6y ago
    I'm sure I'm less sophisticated than you are. I wouldn't consider the university I went to selective by any means. But I have had a lot of friends that are musicians, and with that came a lot of hanging out with them at random venues, and from there going out to hear live electronic music became a dominant theme of most of my life in SF. Whenever I find myself back in San Francisco who's playing there while I'm around is one of the first things I look at.
mjirv 6y ago
I for one am hoping that house prices drop with all the tech people moving out of the Bay Area. That way I can move back to Rockridge (North Oakland) to work remote from there without paying an arm and a leg.
spicyramen 6y ago
That sounds as if you visited SF for the first time...very good speech for tourism.I have been in Bay Area for 13 years, single, with GF, and now with kids. Good luck with the high real state prices and if you can afford it, is probably overvalued, homeless, drug addicts, lack of good public transportation and Infrastructure (no high speed trains). My take i would live in London.
- 2019-nCoV 6y ago
  London is dirtier and just as inflicted with "undesirables", unless you're willing to continue paying SF rent prices, or live in zone 3 or beyond.
  - DXA9zE 6y ago
    I don't find London to be dirtier than SF. Also I get the sense that it's a much bigger city in general, and of course your Stratfords will differ significantly from your Westminsters, although this can be said about basically every city. Also I think London is slightly cheaper. Still, working remotely from London proper is probably a terrible idea given the extent of public transportation. Just live in Croydon and catch overground to London when necessary IMO.
  - baby 6y ago
    Bad luck, I moved from London to SF a bit more than a year ago and: * no, London is much much cleaner than SF. I'd rather take a stroll in London. * there's very little amount of homeless compared to SF. Again, I'd rather take a stroll in London. I was paying 1300GBP (so around 1500USD) for a one bedroom apartment in Battersea (so zone2). I am now paying 3350USD for a small one bedroom in Castro.
    - 2019-nCoV 6y ago
      Battersea and Castro aren't comparable. Inner areas East of Shoreditch or north of Regent's Canal are consistently dirtier than SF's worst.
DapperZoom 6y ago
Another SF lover here. It is an amazing place. What I like so much about it is that you can just wander aimlessly through the city and stumble upon all sort fo cool stuff. Very walkable. Also, in contrast to NYC, you can easily string together a day where you're in Muir Woods, then hit a winery or two in Sonoma, and be back in SF in time for the Symphony. Sure, I don't do stuff like that all the time, but on occasion when I have visitors in town. Downsides are the high cost, the absolutely insane homeless and feces filled streets, and the monoculture.
- JshWright 6y ago
  I can hit Muir Woods-esqe outdoors areas (that are much less busy), wineries, and arts in a day in central New York (the state, not the city). Much cheaper too...
- Spooky23 6y ago
  That’s a pretty narrow view of NYC. You can be on a beach in an hour or less, any number of state parks in a short time, etc. California is amazing, but the NY metro area has a ton to offer with a much lower drama factor.
  - JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
    Could the drama factor concept be expanded on, I am not following.
baby 6y ago
Honestly, if SF was a bit warmer, and didn't have all the homelessness, it wouldn't be such a bad city (assuming you have the luxury to afford it). But I'm a bit fed up with the state of the city personally, I don't think I can stay here for long... it is eating your soul to see so much poverty. I'm really baffled, I have no solutions to offer, I'm just baffled that everyone can see that SF is in a very very bad state and yet nothing is improving.
- crimsonalucard1 6y ago
  It's kind of an aspect of the tragedy of the commons. If you yourself haven't done anything to contribute towards a solution then likely it's also what's going on for everyone else. Basically everyone (me included) is just completely baffled why nothing is improving and just sitting there waiting for something to be done. I recommend the south bay if you want to escape the poverty, it's not as bad down there.
pantheon 6y ago
Wherever you find yourself in SF you will be just couple of miles away from Tenderloin which is a place on Earth closest to hell.

harel 6y ago

I lived in San Francisco between 1998 to 2002 and loved it. In my memory it is a Fantastic city. However, almost all of my friends have left saying it has changed dramatically for the worst. I rather hold on to how I remember it, and really hope that when I visit again one day it will match up to how I remember it.

dlevine 6y ago

I agree with you. Having lived in a number of great cities over the years, San Francisco is my favorite. It's not perfect, but there are a lot of things to love, and being able to work remotely wouldn't cause me to move. Actually just got back from a very similar bike ride.

jypepin 6y ago

My wife is from the Bay Area or obviously biased, but same thing. I'm from France and we both lived is over 10 cities/countries combined (together and separately) and recently came back to the Bay Area "for good". Before coming back we tried pretty hard trying to find somewhere else we could go live (and be much wealthier, afford a bigger house, etc) but we couldn't and decided on going back to Oakland.

klipt 6y ago
Oakland is still more affordable, probably because the public schools aren't great and commute to the good jobs on the peninsula is pretty painful.

crimsonalucard1 6y ago

I mean that's great but you left out a lot of the bad parts. Human feces everywhere, homeless people, broken needles, expensive rent... I think south bay you get less of the above with better weather.

drewcoo 6y ago
And the baying tech workers!
wiskinator 6y ago
If you think 'homeless people' are one of the bad things, then I think you're part of the problem, and would politely ask you to help come up with a solution.
- daseiner1 6y ago
  i would wager most would rank the worst homeless population in the country in terms of rampant drug abuse and severe mental illness an unqualified negative
- Mehdi2277 6y ago
  You're aware around 90 percent of the bay area considers to homelessness to be a serious problem. Citation: https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/03/08/when-it-comes-to-the-homeless-the-bay-areas-compassion-has-a-limit/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/03/08/when-it-comes-to-the-... "89% of residents say homelessness is an extremely or very serious problem — up from 79% the year before"
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    Considering homelessness to be a serious problem and considering homeless people to be a problem are very different (and to some extent opposed) things. Advocates for homeless people think homelessness is a problem. People that oppose dealing with homelessness tend to portray homeless people as a problem.

charlesju 6y ago

Another one! I love the weather here too. That's my favorite part, no need for A/C or worry about the snow. I love the fresh fruits and vegetables and going to the farmer's markets to find what's in season. We're so close to everything that you can want to do in life, that I cannot imagine a better place to grow up or live.

cameronlpmoore 6y ago

I love SF as well! I've traveled around the world and lived in multiple US cities that many people consider nice/cool/fun, but SF is still my favorite city. I was in Golden Gate Park today as well and it never gets old - so beautiful, and perfect weather. The streets in my neighborhood are clean, the neighbors are all intelligent, fascinating older people, young families, and just generally really cool people. Granted I never go to the Tenderloin, SoMa, or the Financial District -- if that's your primary view of the city then I understand the distaste, but overall SF is a fantastic city if you can afford it.

kbyatnal 6y ago
thinking of making the move to SF soon - which neighborhood are you in?

121789 6y ago

Yeah everyone loves those things too, they just don't want to deal with the cost and quality of life from the homeless/drug problem. I walked up to beautiful Corona Heights today and saw all of the amazing views, but then I walked home past the ever-increasing numbers of tents popping up on the street to my overpriced apartment in the mission where I currently have to listen to one mentally disabled homeless person scream profanities at everyone around her. Sure you could move to a different neighborhood, but those problems are difficult to ignore.

jhatemyjob 6y ago
Dude you live in the mission, probably the most disgusting part of the entire bay area, other than maybe the bay itself. I didn't last a single week there Move to Noe Valley or Bernal heights
- jonwalch 6y ago
  There are parts of the Mission that are extremely nice. The Tenderloin is far worse than the Mission and parts of SoMa rival the Mission for grossness.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - PopeDotNinja 6y ago
    On my morning walks in the TL, I had brieflly kepts stat on the poops per mile I counted. I decided it was too much work after I saw 3 poops on a single block.
- wyclif 6y ago
  Yes, can confirm the Tenderloin is worse than the Mission. Take a walk down to Eddy & Leavenworth, especially right after all the homeless and drug abusers have cashed their disability cheques (or on the weekends) and try to walk down the sidewalk without being harassed or your nostrils assaulted by the acrid tang of human piss and fecal matter: https://youtu.be/KUtVz2fIhHM https://youtu.be/KUtVz2fIhHM

DoreenMichele 6y ago

When I got to visit SF, it was a lovely, magical city and it inspired me to buy $300 worth of books related to my interest in someday becoming a city planner (or something similar). The problem is I can't possibly afford to live there. If you can live there, cool. For many people, it's just too expensive to make it into a nice experience. All those restaurants nearby are only cool if you can afford the high cost of housing and have enough money leftover to still eat at restaurants without worrying that you are cutting your own throat in terms of retirement savings or something. In short, it's great if you are wealthy enough. It's not for most other people, even if they find parts of it enchanting.

apoverton 6y ago
Curious, what books did you buy? I’ve been getting interested in this sort of thing lately.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  I bought some book that was a bunch of excerpts from classic urban planning works. I bought a book called "Seeing like the state." I bought a book about the Clemente Course in Humanities (there is a website for this these days). I no doubt bought other stuff. I also enjoyed "How buildings learn" but I don't think I bought it that day. I run r/CitizenPlanners and there are some links there to videos and what not.
  - retsibsi 6y ago
    For anyone interested, Scott Alexander wrote a longish review of Seeing Like A State: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-like-a-state/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-lik... Personally I found the book a bit long and repetitive: although the examples were varied, each was used to restate the same basic point. But that may be my own problem. After all, if you're trying to support a generalisation using case studies, it's not enough to breeze through one or two and assure the reader that others exist; you need to go into detail about as many as you reasonably can.
- 6y ago

rarecoil 6y ago

> I have made many interesting and creative friends here who are from all over the world. I get to work on mobile games, but there are many other opportunities around. Among my coworkers are digital artists and painters, musicians, engineers, hip hop dancers, drag show performers, people who party all night in the Castro, a muay Thai boxer, mixologists, and more interests than I can list. Being mostly in Seattle for about 6 years now, this is what I enjoyed the most about being based in SF and is what will likely make me return to it. Seattle feels to be a town now comprised of corporate campuses and the suburban neighborhoods in between. It's also great if you love outdoor hobbies, but I prefer the vibrance of cities. The creative culture here feels substantially more lacking than it is in SF, and it feels extremely challenging to make new friend that aren't in technology. Of course SF has its tech-bro startup culture; here it seems most people that live around me work for Microsoft, Amazon, or Facebook. At least there were easy outs in going to galleries or clubs or art/makerspaces or various meets for non-tech things in SF and I have never been able to find enough of those in the Seattle area. The COVID-19 crisis will likely choke them out further.

akhilcacharya 6y ago
> . At least there were easy outs in going to galleries or clubs or art/makerspaces or various meets for non-tech things in SF I hear the same thing about New York and to that I wonder: 1) Do people actually like these things 2) or are they a just a way to virtue signal their cosmopolitan bona fides to the other graduates of selective universities? Perhaps I'm just an unsophisticated public school grad, but I've never met anybody that actually takes part in these things even when they live in New York, etc.
- rarecoil 6y ago
  I'm sure I'm less sophisticated than you are. I wouldn't consider the university I went to selective by any means. But I have had a lot of friends that are musicians, and with that came a lot of hanging out with them at random venues, and from there going out to hear live electronic music became a dominant theme of most of my life in SF. Whenever I find myself back in San Francisco who's playing there while I'm around is one of the first things I look at.

mjirv 6y ago

I for one am hoping that house prices drop with all the tech people moving out of the Bay Area. That way I can move back to Rockridge (North Oakland) to work remote from there without paying an arm and a leg.

spicyramen 6y ago

That sounds as if you visited SF for the first time...very good speech for tourism.I have been in Bay Area for 13 years, single, with GF, and now with kids. Good luck with the high real state prices and if you can afford it, is probably overvalued, homeless, drug addicts, lack of good public transportation and Infrastructure (no high speed trains). My take i would live in London.

2019-nCoV 6y ago
London is dirtier and just as inflicted with "undesirables", unless you're willing to continue paying SF rent prices, or live in zone 3 or beyond.
- DXA9zE 6y ago
  I don't find London to be dirtier than SF. Also I get the sense that it's a much bigger city in general, and of course your Stratfords will differ significantly from your Westminsters, although this can be said about basically every city. Also I think London is slightly cheaper. Still, working remotely from London proper is probably a terrible idea given the extent of public transportation. Just live in Croydon and catch overground to London when necessary IMO.
- baby 6y ago
  Bad luck, I moved from London to SF a bit more than a year ago and: * no, London is much much cleaner than SF. I'd rather take a stroll in London. * there's very little amount of homeless compared to SF. Again, I'd rather take a stroll in London. I was paying 1300GBP (so around 1500USD) for a one bedroom apartment in Battersea (so zone2). I am now paying 3350USD for a small one bedroom in Castro.
  - 2019-nCoV 6y ago
    Battersea and Castro aren't comparable. Inner areas East of Shoreditch or north of Regent's Canal are consistently dirtier than SF's worst.

DapperZoom 6y ago

Another SF lover here. It is an amazing place. What I like so much about it is that you can just wander aimlessly through the city and stumble upon all sort fo cool stuff. Very walkable. Also, in contrast to NYC, you can easily string together a day where you're in Muir Woods, then hit a winery or two in Sonoma, and be back in SF in time for the Symphony. Sure, I don't do stuff like that all the time, but on occasion when I have visitors in town. Downsides are the high cost, the absolutely insane homeless and feces filled streets, and the monoculture.

JshWright 6y ago
I can hit Muir Woods-esqe outdoors areas (that are much less busy), wineries, and arts in a day in central New York (the state, not the city). Much cheaper too...
Spooky23 6y ago
That’s a pretty narrow view of NYC. You can be on a beach in an hour or less, any number of state parks in a short time, etc. California is amazing, but the NY metro area has a ton to offer with a much lower drama factor.
- JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
  Could the drama factor concept be expanded on, I am not following.

baby 6y ago

Honestly, if SF was a bit warmer, and didn't have all the homelessness, it wouldn't be such a bad city (assuming you have the luxury to afford it). But I'm a bit fed up with the state of the city personally, I don't think I can stay here for long... it is eating your soul to see so much poverty. I'm really baffled, I have no solutions to offer, I'm just baffled that everyone can see that SF is in a very very bad state and yet nothing is improving.

crimsonalucard1 6y ago
It's kind of an aspect of the tragedy of the commons. If you yourself haven't done anything to contribute towards a solution then likely it's also what's going on for everyone else. Basically everyone (me included) is just completely baffled why nothing is improving and just sitting there waiting for something to be done. I recommend the south bay if you want to escape the poverty, it's not as bad down there.

pantheon 6y ago

Wherever you find yourself in SF you will be just couple of miles away from Tenderloin which is a place on Earth closest to hell.