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I like "Be suspicious of simple stories" TED Talk by Tyler Cowen (https://www.ted.com/talks/tyler_cowen_be_suspicious_of_simple_stories https://www.ted.com/talk

by stared 6y ago

I like "Be suspicious of simple stories" TED Talk by Tyler Cowen (https://www.ted.com/talks/tyler_cowen_be_suspicious_of_simple_stories https://www.ted.com/talks/tyler_cowen_be_suspicious_of_simpl...): > Then asked to describe their lives, what is interesting is how few people said "mess". It's probably the best answer, I don't mean that in a bad way. "Mess" can be liberating, "mess" can be empowering, "mess" can be a way of drawing upon multiple strengths. But what people wanted to say was, "My life is a journey." 51% wanted to turn his or her life into a story. 11% said, "My life is a battle." Again, that is a kind of story. 8% said, "My life is a novel." 5% said, "My life is a play." In a similar vein, I recommend "The danger of a single story" by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie (https://www.ted.com/talks/chimamanda_ngozi_adichie_the_danger_of_a_single_story https://www.ted.com/talks/chimamanda_ngozi_adichie_the_dange...). For example, if we hear that "Sam is poor" we create a whole image based on one trait (which does even need to be a defining trait!) and lose the complexity of a human being and their life. (Side note: if we only know that "Max supports Trump", and the whole person becomes only a Trump supporter; it is very different from knowing Max in detail, when it is only one of his/her traits.) Yes, for most people stories are the easiest way to learn something. However, but their own nature they are intentionally oversimplified. So they are also the easiest way to fool others, intentionally or not.

logicprog 6y ago
What you say here is certainly true. Many stories are oversimplified, and stories are a good way to fool ourselves. However, I'd like to push back gently on the idea that we should never use narratives. It is true that _traditional story structures_ don't necessarily reflect the real structure of historical experience/occurence, but they _can_ fit, too. It really depends on the occurence. And more importantly, stories can be infinitely granular and complex (just read _War and Peace_ or _In Search of Lost Time_, for example), complex and granular enough to capture actual historical experience without distortion. As for people not describing their lives as a mess, that's because a mess has no structure - whereas a journey or a battle has a structure; life does not necessarily have structure, sure, but those people who choose to describe their lives in structured ways do so because they are _giving_ it structure. If someone's life is structured (by them) as a pursuit of some goal or state, where everything that happens either helps that, hinders that, or acts as a side-quest, then they may well describe it as a journey. A fractally complex journey, but a journey nonetheless.
- jadbox 6y ago
  > just read _War and Peace_ or _In Search of Lost Time_, for example These are excellent well-contrasting examples, well put. > A fractally complex journey, but a journey nonetheless. Do you write frequently? This is one of my favorite comments on HN in terms of style and etiquette.
  - logicprog 6y ago
    Thank you for your kind words, you really made my day! I do in fact write quite often: usually around ten thousand words a week, although most of it isn't exactly amazing. Also yes, I thought ISoLT and W&P contrasted nicely.
afarrell 6y ago
I'm someone who for years tried to strive for honesty over narrative coherence. The reality is that when you do that people get bored and don't remember a thing. In order to actually convey any information, you need to have a point and some structure that people can understand. That means that your listener will imperfectly understand reality. That is inevitable.
- mturilin 6y ago
  Do you know some good resources to build up storytelling skills?
  - graphpapa 6y ago
    Anything that forces you to tell stories; creative writing, making videos, theatre, improv perhaps. I think it’s the _telling_ that matters, more than the story. - and I think practice will be much more effective than theory for that. Build up that sense for what works and what doesn’t by trying and seeing (ideally in a supportive environment - a certain sort of friendship is great for this actually, no need for an improv class)
    - afarrell 6y ago
      I'm the sort of person that needs theory to be effective at practice. Without theory, I don't know what to pay attention to. If I just practice without theory, I don't see myself succeed. For more on why, see: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/05/book-review-surfing-uncertainty/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/05/book-review-surfing-un...
  - maroonblazer 6y ago
    "Made to Stick" I found to be a good book on storytelling. It doesn't position it as "storytelling" per se but more generally about how to communicate ideas in a way that captivate audiences, however large or small. https://www.amazon.com/Made-Stick-Ideas-Survive-Others/dp/1400064287 https://www.amazon.com/Made-Stick-Ideas-Survive-Others/dp/14...
  - 6y ago
numberphilo 6y ago
Reminds me of a rule in "Factfulness": Never trust a number in isolation. Numbers are used to create narratives, and a single number or statistic can easily create a misleading picture.

by stared 6y ago

logicprog 6y ago

What you say here is certainly true. Many stories are oversimplified, and stories are a good way to fool ourselves. However, I'd like to push back gently on the idea that we should never use narratives. It is true that _traditional story structures_ don't necessarily reflect the real structure of historical experience/occurence, but they _can_ fit, too. It really depends on the occurence. And more importantly, stories can be infinitely granular and complex (just read _War and Peace_ or _In Search of Lost Time_, for example), complex and granular enough to capture actual historical experience without distortion. As for people not describing their lives as a mess, that's because a mess has no structure - whereas a journey or a battle has a structure; life does not necessarily have structure, sure, but those people who choose to describe their lives in structured ways do so because they are _giving_ it structure. If someone's life is structured (by them) as a pursuit of some goal or state, where everything that happens either helps that, hinders that, or acts as a side-quest, then they may well describe it as a journey. A fractally complex journey, but a journey nonetheless.

jadbox 6y ago
> just read _War and Peace_ or _In Search of Lost Time_, for example These are excellent well-contrasting examples, well put. > A fractally complex journey, but a journey nonetheless. Do you write frequently? This is one of my favorite comments on HN in terms of style and etiquette.
- logicprog 6y ago
  Thank you for your kind words, you really made my day! I do in fact write quite often: usually around ten thousand words a week, although most of it isn't exactly amazing. Also yes, I thought ISoLT and W&P contrasted nicely.

afarrell 6y ago

I'm someone who for years tried to strive for honesty over narrative coherence. The reality is that when you do that people get bored and don't remember a thing. In order to actually convey any information, you need to have a point and some structure that people can understand. That means that your listener will imperfectly understand reality. That is inevitable.

mturilin 6y ago
Do you know some good resources to build up storytelling skills?
- graphpapa 6y ago
  Anything that forces you to tell stories; creative writing, making videos, theatre, improv perhaps. I think it’s the _telling_ that matters, more than the story. - and I think practice will be much more effective than theory for that. Build up that sense for what works and what doesn’t by trying and seeing (ideally in a supportive environment - a certain sort of friendship is great for this actually, no need for an improv class)
  - afarrell 6y ago
    I'm the sort of person that needs theory to be effective at practice. Without theory, I don't know what to pay attention to. If I just practice without theory, I don't see myself succeed. For more on why, see: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/05/book-review-surfing-uncertainty/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/05/book-review-surfing-un...
- maroonblazer 6y ago
  "Made to Stick" I found to be a good book on storytelling. It doesn't position it as "storytelling" per se but more generally about how to communicate ideas in a way that captivate audiences, however large or small. https://www.amazon.com/Made-Stick-Ideas-Survive-Others/dp/1400064287 https://www.amazon.com/Made-Stick-Ideas-Survive-Others/dp/14...
- 6y ago

numberphilo 6y ago

Reminds me of a rule in "Factfulness": Never trust a number in isolation. Numbers are used to create narratives, and a single number or statistic can easily create a misleading picture.