10 ms·

I can help but feel lied to when there is only a laundry list of "good"s and no analysis on downsides. When I read "it helps with this" "it prevents this", I a

I can help but feel lied to when there is only a laundry list of "good"s and no analysis on downsides. When I read "it helps with this" "it prevents this", I always ask "but at what cost". Can an exogenous molecule that was so adaptive be missed this bad and now consuming it will just fill that gap we had for millions of years? Let's not kid ourselves. Concentrated caffeine is a drug and not a nutrient. We drink it because it is psychoactive and we habituate to it. Try drinking redbull as a caffeine-naive person or not drinking coffee as a daily drinker. If an exogenous substance is that potent, it is a drug. (Even though I like it myself too, it is also pretty shit of a drug in my opinion, with 5 hr half-life, a dice roll every time whether it is gonna create more sleep than focus and a steep tolerance curve.) Magic mushrooms also have nutritional value, nicotine also has some benefits, beer has tons of calories, they might even have adaptive value with occasional use. You might enjoy them, you might drink coffee everyday. That is fine. But they are all drugs and not nutrients.

ip26 6y ago
Can an exogenous molecule that was so adaptive be missed this bad and now consuming it will just fill that gap we had for millions of years? Maybe we didn't have a gap for millions of years. The African kola nut contains caffeine and is supposedly a popular stimulant.
- acituan 6y ago
  That was exactly my point. The molecule is not novel. It indeed existed and we had the opportunity to evolve with its ambient presence. If the laundry list of advantages were that important, it would have created selective pressure on those who didn’t consume it. But it didn’t prove itself as indispensable while other nutrients did; that’s why they are nutrients and caffeine isn’t.
  - Mirioron 6y ago
    We don't need (many) carbs either, yet it's the biggest part of our diet and has been for a long time. We still call it a nutrient.
    - acituan 6y ago
      Carbs are not essential indeed. But consuming carbs when available gave us net selective advantage, which is why it's been the biggest part of our post-agricultural diet. And those carbs didn't exist in isolation but in the context of other macro and micronutrients including vitamins. Can't say the same about caffeine sources, they weren't consumed for their nutritional content, and the supposed selective advantage of their consumption apparently didn't matter as much as carbs'. We didn't witness a supremacy of caffeine using populations, but we witnessed ones that could utilize carbs.
  - nootanond 6y ago
    >It indeed existed and we had the opportunity to evolve with its ambient presence. It may exist in a number of plants all over the world but that doesn't mean that people were harvesting and using it outside of certain isolated cultures until fairly recently, compared to evolutionary timescales. If anything I'd expect significant genetic variation representing adaptations only present in some groups. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20859791/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20859791/
frant-hartm 6y ago
>a dice roll every time whether it is gonna create more sleep than focus This is highly individual. There are people who can go to sleep after drinking a cup of coffee, who feel sleepy after drinking small amount (how small actually varies) and then people like me that can go on for 5 more hours no matter how tired, even after being awake for more than 24 hr - there is no dice roll, works 100 %.
- eloff 6y ago
  That you can sleep does not imply you get the same quality of sleep. It's well known that alcohol and caffeine reduce sleep quality. So even if you can sleep after having a coffee, it's probably still not a good idea. Have a decaf if it's after 3pm.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
    This always reminds me that there is a difference between public health policy and individualised care. Generally speaking, you're probably correct, and yet for some individuals some of the time some amount of alcohol, caffeine, psilocybin, mdma, etc etc etc, may have a beneficial effect for some period of time.
    - palimpsests 6y ago
      In case you aren't aware, there are a number of active clinical research trials underway demonstrating the efficacy of MDMA and psilocybin, under the support of the FDA: https://maps.org/research/mdma https://maps.org/research/mdma https://hopkinspsychedelic.org https://hopkinspsychedelic.org In other words, these medicines are being explored specifically through the lens of public health policy. The question of their benefits being a statistical anomaly (when used in appropriate settings) is looking increasingly unlikely.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
        Yep, am aware. Still worth mentioning :) Great username btw
johnfn 6y ago
> I can help but feel lied to when there is only a laundry list of "good"s and no analysis on downsides. Keep in mind that there's a strong selection bias here. We've been drinking coffee for hundreds of years. If over that time we had ever noticed it had any notable negative side effects, we would have relegated it to the very very long list of substances which are more of a mixed bag.
- tcbawo 6y ago
  For many people, caffeine causes high blood pressure, anxiety, and in extreme cases heart arrythmia.
  - nootanond 6y ago
    In the short term over the duration of effect. I don't think I've ever seen a reliable study that demonstrated any reliable evidence of long term harm from coffee with any certainty.
BurningFrog 6y ago
I think of it as a drug that adapts us to modern industrialized life, while our genetic dispositions are still half in the hunter/gatherer stage.
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  I can say the same about alcohol
  - throwaway2048 6y ago
    Or heroin, or cocaine
    - esperent 6y ago
      For me it's Kratom. It's helped me out of deep depression and also does more to help with migraines than any painkiller I've tried. I've been using it regularly for about 5 years now (with occasional cycles to reduce tolerance). So far, I have found no downsides except for the taste. When I stop taking it, there's one day of grumpiness which I would say it of similar strength to effect of stopping coffee after a regular habit. (EDIT because I'm not allowed to make a new comment for some reason, this is a reply to the comment below) Every person is different and you must take care of what you put in your body. I take kratom because it's a double whammy that reduces two problems - depression and migraine - to manageable levels, while having low potential for addiction. I have so far encountered no negative effects from taking it, only positives. However, I would prefer _not_ to take it. I would prefer _not_ to have depression and migraines and not to need any drugs to maintain a normal lifestyle. I work on this by maintaining a healthy diet, exercising regularly, sleeping well, meditation, and maybe I'll get there someday. In the meantime, kratom has increased my quality of life a lot over the past few years. This is not intended as a suggestion that anyone else should take it, just an anecdote about my experience. Regarding constipation - I have heard this before, but never personally experienced it. I mix each dose (<1tps) with a full cup of water, which probably helps.
      - 6y ago
dehrmann 6y ago
> no analysis on downsides The main one has to be worse sleep quality.
- dogma1138 6y ago
  Studies on that are inconclusive at best, mainly due to the fact that people who rely on caffeine for daily function often do so due to having issues with sleep in them first place. And no it’s quite likely not the the chicken the the egg problem. Don’t get me wrong downing 3 double espresso shots 30 min before bed time is probably not a good idea however there is nothing that indicates that caffeine consumption during the day would have an impact on sleep in fact many studies showed that moderate amounts of caffeine even 2 hours before bed did not have a negative impact on sleep and a few studies even showed improvement in REM sleep when caffeine was taken but again nutrition studies are notoriously problematic.
  - ssijak 6y ago
    Long time ago when I was chronically tired and with random sleeping patterns (going out, staying late...) I could drink strong coffee 30mins before sleep and have no problem getting to sleep. But some time later when I normalized with daily rhythm and stress I could not, I had to drink last coffee before 4pm, then a few years later before 2pm and less coffee. Now, when I am religious about getting to sleep before 11pm and am mindful about my energy levels, stress, eat well for long periods, train moderately, one coffee in the morning is more than enough to feel strong kick until the evening almost. I am thinking of even dropping that for some black/green tea. I think that so many people are chronically overstressed, undersleeped and with overworked adrenal glands, that they can’t even notice the real downside until they get into a better position for some time. And coffee in a run down body is just for keeping things bearly going.
  - RandomTisk 6y ago
    I drink coffee/espressos each day, probably too much. Just recently after not having my usual Americanos I had a massive headache before bed. Advil did nothing so I figured it must be a caffeine withdrawal headache. They're hell and there's no way I can sleep with one so I made a shot of espresso and downed it quickly. Within 30 mins my headache went from a jackhammer pounding my skull to a distant woodpecker, and after another 30 mins I was asleep and slept fine. The big confounding factor with caffeine studies might be tolerance.
pdog 6y ago
A lot of nutrients (e.g., caffeine, vitamin D3, the fiber in raw carrots) are the closest thing we have to a "free lunch" because the evolutionary pressures that limited access to these nutrients are gone. Our brains used to compete for scarce calories and nutrition, but now we can vastly increase these things with little to no downside. There is no scientific distinction between food, drugs, and nutrients. They're all molecules. All that matters is the dosage.
- briefcomment 6y ago
  "the fiber in raw carrots" I see you're familiar with Ray's other work :)
  - SRTP 6y ago
    Enlighten me please?
    - briefcomment 6y ago
      Ray thinks the fiber and antibacterial qualities of raw carrots are helpful in maintaining good intestinal health. This link has various quotes from Ray over the years on this topic. https://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/09/28/ray-peat-phd-on-the-benefits-of-the-raw-carrot/ https://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/09/28/ray-peat-phd-on...
      - mastermojo 6y ago
        Does the fiber in a cooked carrot become digestible?
        briefcomment 6y ago
        According to Ray and his research, yes. Eating cooked carrots will promote unwanted bacterial growth in the intestine, and can increase the absorption of beta carotene, which in increased amounts can suppress metabolism.
ehmish 6y ago
Interestingly a number of these things on this list aren't unfettered good things. E.g reducing iron absorption, or increasing fuel efficiency, e.g if you're vegan, or you're trying to lose weight respectively those aren't good things. So I think that resolves the mystery, it's not a missing nutrient, it's just a chemical that can be used to offset consequences of other patterns of consuming exogenous molecules
- triyambakam 6y ago
  Regarding absorbing iron on a plant based diet, it's important to distinguish between heme iron and nonheme iron, and that namely most vegans have no trouble getting enough iron from beans and greens.
empath75 6y ago
In particular, nothing about heart damage. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/11/12/well/live/too-much-caffeine-may-stress-the-heart.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/11/12/well... The main issue with caffeine, however, is that it is very bitter and so most caffeinated beverages come with a large amount of sugar to mask the taste.
- taeric 6y ago
  As someone that drinks their coffee black, I think that says more for the good taste of sugar. Even most tisanes are sweetened as much as not. That said, I have grown to love robusta coffee. I've heard it is akin to how cilantro tastes like soap to some people. Delicious for a lot of us.
- esperent 6y ago
  When I started drinking coffee regularly in college, I decided I would only allow myself to drink it black to avoid sugar and milk (I can't digest lactose). It didn't take long at all before I preferred it that way. Now I love a back espresso with no sugar.
  - BenjiWiebe 6y ago
    Same with tea, for me. I drank tea and tisanes with sugar and milk when I was young. Then over time I went to just sugar, and then plain. Now I prefer tea/tisane/coffee plain.
mrslave 6y ago
I don't consume energy drinks under normal circumstances. I save it for that once every 6-12 months when it's 11 PM and something critical needs to be done by SOB. With it I can get 4 hours of zone quite reliably. Then at 3 AM I crash, hard.
- senectus1 6y ago
  sounds like your work life is reasonably ordered and easy to navigate. Some of us live in high pressure high demand work lives. in order to fit that and personal life needs in, we need a push. While I wouldn't go down the path of "hard drugs", Caffeine is a daily boost when needed.
  - stagger87 6y ago
    Unfortunately this isn't how caffeine works. Your body adjusts quickly to daily use. Any perceived increase of "boost" due to long term daily caffeine usage is mental. (Which probably has value for many people)
    - elliekelly 6y ago
      This is what convinces me caffeine is a drug and not a vitamin or nutrient. If I miss my daily vitamin I don’t even notice but if I miss my daily dose of caffeine it’s difficult for my brain to function on account of the inevitable withdrawal headache.
      - _bxg1 6y ago
        The same could be said of each if you don't take them normally and then suddenly do. Vitamins just don't have a short-term effect one way or another.
      - adrianN 6y ago
        You would certainly notice if you missed some essential vitamins. The modern diet is just good enough to get you enough of all of them without too much effort.
whiddershins 6y ago
I agree with you, but just to explore the idea: Is there a “nutrient” that isn’t harmful in excessive quantities?
- ralphstodomingo 6y ago
  Exactly. GP thinks nutrients are just all-beneficial.
- ineedasername 6y ago
  I can't think of a single thing we put in our bodies that couldn't be harmful if done to excess. Maybe I lack imagination though-- comment below with candidate "safe" substances!
dcolkitt 6y ago
> Can an exogenous molecule that was so adaptive be missed this bad and now consuming it will just fill that gap we had for millions of years? I think the simplest answer to this is that for most of human evolutionary history, calories were scarce. And caffeine, like all stimulants, boosts metabolic rate both through thermogenesis and increased activity. That's a hard downside to overcome, even with a plethora of other health benefits. For our hunter-gatherer ancestors, an endogenous chemical that burned an extra 100 calories a day could very likely mean the difference between life or death during a drought. That's not the case today, because calories are essentially free (in fact we're literally dying due to a surfeit of calories).
- im3w1l 6y ago
  Very interesting point that a major constraint has been lifted. I wonder what other wins we can get because of that now.
- witherk 6y ago
  I can't believe I never thought of this. With this in mind, it seems that any drug is more likely to be a net positive iff it increases metabolic rate. I wonder if that is the case.
  - briefcomment 6y ago
    This is a crude but relatively accurate way of summing up the author's (Ray Peat) stance I think.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
elindbe2 6y ago
Caffeine has the unfortunate side effect of raising my blood pressure about 10 mmHg. While I love coffee I had to give it up. I can't imagine that would be good for me long term.
- djmips 6y ago
  What about lower dosage, like in a tea or decaf?
novok 6y ago
Concentrated vitamin A can also kill you, and a complete lack of it can bring health issues too. Even too much water can be bad for you, along with too much sugar. Too much of X is not a sufficient argument to say something is bad.
econcon 6y ago
During lockdown I quit coffee cold turkey, I didn't feel anything. No changes in energy level or anything. I don't even feel anything other than the flavor difference between tea and coffee.
- rustybolt 6y ago
  Most tea contains caffeine too. Usually less, but if you drink more tea than you drank coffee you might just take as much caffeine (or more, even) as you did before.
  - econcon 6y ago
    Actually I drank nothing as we didn't feel like buying milk.
- nishparadox 6y ago
  I have a hard time doing that. I have a "caffeine-induced" reality. Maybe I am romanticizing "coffee" too long.
techbio 6y ago
This definition is not substantial enough to justify a decades-long war.
tchaffee 6y ago
> Let's not kid ourselves. Concentrated caffeine is a drug and not a nutrient. Coffee can contain both nutrients and contain a drug. They are not exclusive. The title is misleading in focusing on caffeine. But the article mostly focuses on the benefits of coffee and tea, while occasionally also talking about the drug it contains. Your analogies don't always work. Nicotine is not consumed as a food. Neither are magic mushrooms consumed on a regular enough basis to be considered for nutritional purposes. Beer however is a better analogy. And both beer and coffee, in moderation, have a lot of studies so far showing a correlation with longer lifespans. So, is that from the nutrients? From the drug within? Or from both? All are possibilities until we pinpoint causation.
- flyGuyOnTheSly 6y ago
  >And both beer and coffee, in moderation, have a lot of studies so far showing a correlation with longer lifespans. Wealthy people can afford to drink beer and coffee regularly, and have the intelligence to keep their habits within moderation. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that regular beer/coffee habits actually lead to longer lives lived.
  - tchaffee 6y ago
    In one study [1], of "nearly 500,000 adults in Britain, those who consumed instant, ground and decaf coffee – even as much as 8 cups daily – had a slightly lower risk of death over 10 years than those who did not." Another large scale study [2] on coffee included 400,000 adults. Suffice it to say that studies of ~1/2 million people cover a wide range of economic statuses. And there have been enough of these large scale studies already to perform meta-analysis [3], again leading to the same conclusion. We have similar large scale peer reviewed studies over alcohol. So you'll have to do a lot better than a guess about what the actual causation might be. > and have the intelligence to keep their habits within moderation. Wait, I thought poorer people can't afford to drink beer and coffee regularly? Which is it? The idea that moderation comes with intelligence or wealth is a false stereotype that deserves to die. Plenty of wealthy people and plenty of intelligent people have addiction problems. Wealth and intelligence are bad predictors of addiction. A far better predictor is family history. [1] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2686145 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/articl... [2] https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1112010 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1112010 [3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25156996/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25156996/

ip26 6y ago

Can an exogenous molecule that was so adaptive be missed this bad and now consuming it will just fill that gap we had for millions of years? Maybe we didn't have a gap for millions of years. The African kola nut contains caffeine and is supposedly a popular stimulant.

acituan 6y ago
That was exactly my point. The molecule is not novel. It indeed existed and we had the opportunity to evolve with its ambient presence. If the laundry list of advantages were that important, it would have created selective pressure on those who didn’t consume it. But it didn’t prove itself as indispensable while other nutrients did; that’s why they are nutrients and caffeine isn’t.
- Mirioron 6y ago
  We don't need (many) carbs either, yet it's the biggest part of our diet and has been for a long time. We still call it a nutrient.
  - acituan 6y ago
    Carbs are not essential indeed. But consuming carbs when available gave us net selective advantage, which is why it's been the biggest part of our post-agricultural diet. And those carbs didn't exist in isolation but in the context of other macro and micronutrients including vitamins. Can't say the same about caffeine sources, they weren't consumed for their nutritional content, and the supposed selective advantage of their consumption apparently didn't matter as much as carbs'. We didn't witness a supremacy of caffeine using populations, but we witnessed ones that could utilize carbs.
- nootanond 6y ago
  >It indeed existed and we had the opportunity to evolve with its ambient presence. It may exist in a number of plants all over the world but that doesn't mean that people were harvesting and using it outside of certain isolated cultures until fairly recently, compared to evolutionary timescales. If anything I'd expect significant genetic variation representing adaptations only present in some groups. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20859791/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20859791/

frant-hartm 6y ago

>a dice roll every time whether it is gonna create more sleep than focus This is highly individual. There are people who can go to sleep after drinking a cup of coffee, who feel sleepy after drinking small amount (how small actually varies) and then people like me that can go on for 5 more hours no matter how tired, even after being awake for more than 24 hr - there is no dice roll, works 100 %.

eloff 6y ago
That you can sleep does not imply you get the same quality of sleep. It's well known that alcohol and caffeine reduce sleep quality. So even if you can sleep after having a coffee, it's probably still not a good idea. Have a decaf if it's after 3pm.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
  This always reminds me that there is a difference between public health policy and individualised care. Generally speaking, you're probably correct, and yet for some individuals some of the time some amount of alcohol, caffeine, psilocybin, mdma, etc etc etc, may have a beneficial effect for some period of time.
  - palimpsests 6y ago
    In case you aren't aware, there are a number of active clinical research trials underway demonstrating the efficacy of MDMA and psilocybin, under the support of the FDA: https://maps.org/research/mdma https://maps.org/research/mdma https://hopkinspsychedelic.org https://hopkinspsychedelic.org In other words, these medicines are being explored specifically through the lens of public health policy. The question of their benefits being a statistical anomaly (when used in appropriate settings) is looking increasingly unlikely.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
      Yep, am aware. Still worth mentioning :) Great username btw

johnfn 6y ago

> I can help but feel lied to when there is only a laundry list of "good"s and no analysis on downsides. Keep in mind that there's a strong selection bias here. We've been drinking coffee for hundreds of years. If over that time we had ever noticed it had any notable negative side effects, we would have relegated it to the very very long list of substances which are more of a mixed bag.

tcbawo 6y ago
For many people, caffeine causes high blood pressure, anxiety, and in extreme cases heart arrythmia.
- nootanond 6y ago
  In the short term over the duration of effect. I don't think I've ever seen a reliable study that demonstrated any reliable evidence of long term harm from coffee with any certainty.

BurningFrog 6y ago

I think of it as a drug that adapts us to modern industrialized life, while our genetic dispositions are still half in the hunter/gatherer stage.

NikolaeVarius 6y ago
I can say the same about alcohol
- throwaway2048 6y ago
  Or heroin, or cocaine
  - esperent 6y ago
    For me it's Kratom. It's helped me out of deep depression and also does more to help with migraines than any painkiller I've tried. I've been using it regularly for about 5 years now (with occasional cycles to reduce tolerance). So far, I have found no downsides except for the taste. When I stop taking it, there's one day of grumpiness which I would say it of similar strength to effect of stopping coffee after a regular habit. (EDIT because I'm not allowed to make a new comment for some reason, this is a reply to the comment below) Every person is different and you must take care of what you put in your body. I take kratom because it's a double whammy that reduces two problems - depression and migraine - to manageable levels, while having low potential for addiction. I have so far encountered no negative effects from taking it, only positives. However, I would prefer _not_ to take it. I would prefer _not_ to have depression and migraines and not to need any drugs to maintain a normal lifestyle. I work on this by maintaining a healthy diet, exercising regularly, sleeping well, meditation, and maybe I'll get there someday. In the meantime, kratom has increased my quality of life a lot over the past few years. This is not intended as a suggestion that anyone else should take it, just an anecdote about my experience. Regarding constipation - I have heard this before, but never personally experienced it. I mix each dose (<1tps) with a full cup of water, which probably helps.
    - 6y ago

dehrmann 6y ago

> no analysis on downsides The main one has to be worse sleep quality.

dogma1138 6y ago
Studies on that are inconclusive at best, mainly due to the fact that people who rely on caffeine for daily function often do so due to having issues with sleep in them first place. And no it’s quite likely not the the chicken the the egg problem. Don’t get me wrong downing 3 double espresso shots 30 min before bed time is probably not a good idea however there is nothing that indicates that caffeine consumption during the day would have an impact on sleep in fact many studies showed that moderate amounts of caffeine even 2 hours before bed did not have a negative impact on sleep and a few studies even showed improvement in REM sleep when caffeine was taken but again nutrition studies are notoriously problematic.
- ssijak 6y ago
  Long time ago when I was chronically tired and with random sleeping patterns (going out, staying late...) I could drink strong coffee 30mins before sleep and have no problem getting to sleep. But some time later when I normalized with daily rhythm and stress I could not, I had to drink last coffee before 4pm, then a few years later before 2pm and less coffee. Now, when I am religious about getting to sleep before 11pm and am mindful about my energy levels, stress, eat well for long periods, train moderately, one coffee in the morning is more than enough to feel strong kick until the evening almost. I am thinking of even dropping that for some black/green tea. I think that so many people are chronically overstressed, undersleeped and with overworked adrenal glands, that they can’t even notice the real downside until they get into a better position for some time. And coffee in a run down body is just for keeping things bearly going.
- RandomTisk 6y ago
  I drink coffee/espressos each day, probably too much. Just recently after not having my usual Americanos I had a massive headache before bed. Advil did nothing so I figured it must be a caffeine withdrawal headache. They're hell and there's no way I can sleep with one so I made a shot of espresso and downed it quickly. Within 30 mins my headache went from a jackhammer pounding my skull to a distant woodpecker, and after another 30 mins I was asleep and slept fine. The big confounding factor with caffeine studies might be tolerance.

pdog 6y ago

A lot of nutrients (e.g., caffeine, vitamin D3, the fiber in raw carrots) are the closest thing we have to a "free lunch" because the evolutionary pressures that limited access to these nutrients are gone. Our brains used to compete for scarce calories and nutrition, but now we can vastly increase these things with little to no downside. There is no scientific distinction between food, drugs, and nutrients. They're all molecules. All that matters is the dosage.

briefcomment 6y ago
"the fiber in raw carrots" I see you're familiar with Ray's other work :)
- SRTP 6y ago
  Enlighten me please?
  - briefcomment 6y ago
    Ray thinks the fiber and antibacterial qualities of raw carrots are helpful in maintaining good intestinal health. This link has various quotes from Ray over the years on this topic. https://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/09/28/ray-peat-phd-on-the-benefits-of-the-raw-carrot/ https://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/09/28/ray-peat-phd-on...
    - mastermojo 6y ago
      Does the fiber in a cooked carrot become digestible?
      - briefcomment 6y ago
        According to Ray and his research, yes. Eating cooked carrots will promote unwanted bacterial growth in the intestine, and can increase the absorption of beta carotene, which in increased amounts can suppress metabolism.

ehmish 6y ago

Interestingly a number of these things on this list aren't unfettered good things. E.g reducing iron absorption, or increasing fuel efficiency, e.g if you're vegan, or you're trying to lose weight respectively those aren't good things. So I think that resolves the mystery, it's not a missing nutrient, it's just a chemical that can be used to offset consequences of other patterns of consuming exogenous molecules

triyambakam 6y ago
Regarding absorbing iron on a plant based diet, it's important to distinguish between heme iron and nonheme iron, and that namely most vegans have no trouble getting enough iron from beans and greens.

empath75 6y ago

In particular, nothing about heart damage. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/11/12/well/live/too-much-caffeine-may-stress-the-heart.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/11/12/well... The main issue with caffeine, however, is that it is very bitter and so most caffeinated beverages come with a large amount of sugar to mask the taste.

taeric 6y ago
As someone that drinks their coffee black, I think that says more for the good taste of sugar. Even most tisanes are sweetened as much as not. That said, I have grown to love robusta coffee. I've heard it is akin to how cilantro tastes like soap to some people. Delicious for a lot of us.
esperent 6y ago
When I started drinking coffee regularly in college, I decided I would only allow myself to drink it black to avoid sugar and milk (I can't digest lactose). It didn't take long at all before I preferred it that way. Now I love a back espresso with no sugar.
- BenjiWiebe 6y ago
  Same with tea, for me. I drank tea and tisanes with sugar and milk when I was young. Then over time I went to just sugar, and then plain. Now I prefer tea/tisane/coffee plain.

mrslave 6y ago

I don't consume energy drinks under normal circumstances. I save it for that once every 6-12 months when it's 11 PM and something critical needs to be done by SOB. With it I can get 4 hours of zone quite reliably. Then at 3 AM I crash, hard.

senectus1 6y ago
sounds like your work life is reasonably ordered and easy to navigate. Some of us live in high pressure high demand work lives. in order to fit that and personal life needs in, we need a push. While I wouldn't go down the path of "hard drugs", Caffeine is a daily boost when needed.
- stagger87 6y ago
  Unfortunately this isn't how caffeine works. Your body adjusts quickly to daily use. Any perceived increase of "boost" due to long term daily caffeine usage is mental. (Which probably has value for many people)
  - elliekelly 6y ago
    This is what convinces me caffeine is a drug and not a vitamin or nutrient. If I miss my daily vitamin I don’t even notice but if I miss my daily dose of caffeine it’s difficult for my brain to function on account of the inevitable withdrawal headache.
    - _bxg1 6y ago
      The same could be said of each if you don't take them normally and then suddenly do. Vitamins just don't have a short-term effect one way or another.
    - adrianN 6y ago
      You would certainly notice if you missed some essential vitamins. The modern diet is just good enough to get you enough of all of them without too much effort.

whiddershins 6y ago

I agree with you, but just to explore the idea: Is there a “nutrient” that isn’t harmful in excessive quantities?

ralphstodomingo 6y ago
Exactly. GP thinks nutrients are just all-beneficial.
ineedasername 6y ago
I can't think of a single thing we put in our bodies that couldn't be harmful if done to excess. Maybe I lack imagination though-- comment below with candidate "safe" substances!

dcolkitt 6y ago

> Can an exogenous molecule that was so adaptive be missed this bad and now consuming it will just fill that gap we had for millions of years? I think the simplest answer to this is that for most of human evolutionary history, calories were scarce. And caffeine, like all stimulants, boosts metabolic rate both through thermogenesis and increased activity. That's a hard downside to overcome, even with a plethora of other health benefits. For our hunter-gatherer ancestors, an endogenous chemical that burned an extra 100 calories a day could very likely mean the difference between life or death during a drought. That's not the case today, because calories are essentially free (in fact we're literally dying due to a surfeit of calories).

im3w1l 6y ago
Very interesting point that a major constraint has been lifted. I wonder what other wins we can get because of that now.
witherk 6y ago
I can't believe I never thought of this. With this in mind, it seems that any drug is more likely to be a net positive iff it increases metabolic rate. I wonder if that is the case.
- briefcomment 6y ago
  This is a crude but relatively accurate way of summing up the author's (Ray Peat) stance I think.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

elindbe2 6y ago

Caffeine has the unfortunate side effect of raising my blood pressure about 10 mmHg. While I love coffee I had to give it up. I can't imagine that would be good for me long term.

djmips 6y ago
What about lower dosage, like in a tea or decaf?

novok 6y ago

Concentrated vitamin A can also kill you, and a complete lack of it can bring health issues too. Even too much water can be bad for you, along with too much sugar. Too much of X is not a sufficient argument to say something is bad.

econcon 6y ago

During lockdown I quit coffee cold turkey, I didn't feel anything. No changes in energy level or anything. I don't even feel anything other than the flavor difference between tea and coffee.

rustybolt 6y ago
Most tea contains caffeine too. Usually less, but if you drink more tea than you drank coffee you might just take as much caffeine (or more, even) as you did before.
- econcon 6y ago
  Actually I drank nothing as we didn't feel like buying milk.
nishparadox 6y ago
I have a hard time doing that. I have a "caffeine-induced" reality. Maybe I am romanticizing "coffee" too long.

techbio 6y ago

This definition is not substantial enough to justify a decades-long war.

tchaffee 6y ago

> Let's not kid ourselves. Concentrated caffeine is a drug and not a nutrient. Coffee can contain both nutrients and contain a drug. They are not exclusive. The title is misleading in focusing on caffeine. But the article mostly focuses on the benefits of coffee and tea, while occasionally also talking about the drug it contains. Your analogies don't always work. Nicotine is not consumed as a food. Neither are magic mushrooms consumed on a regular enough basis to be considered for nutritional purposes. Beer however is a better analogy. And both beer and coffee, in moderation, have a lot of studies so far showing a correlation with longer lifespans. So, is that from the nutrients? From the drug within? Or from both? All are possibilities until we pinpoint causation.

flyGuyOnTheSly 6y ago
>And both beer and coffee, in moderation, have a lot of studies so far showing a correlation with longer lifespans. Wealthy people can afford to drink beer and coffee regularly, and have the intelligence to keep their habits within moderation. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that regular beer/coffee habits actually lead to longer lives lived.
- tchaffee 6y ago
  In one study [1], of "nearly 500,000 adults in Britain, those who consumed instant, ground and decaf coffee – even as much as 8 cups daily – had a slightly lower risk of death over 10 years than those who did not." Another large scale study [2] on coffee included 400,000 adults. Suffice it to say that studies of ~1/2 million people cover a wide range of economic statuses. And there have been enough of these large scale studies already to perform meta-analysis [3], again leading to the same conclusion. We have similar large scale peer reviewed studies over alcohol. So you'll have to do a lot better than a guess about what the actual causation might be. > and have the intelligence to keep their habits within moderation. Wait, I thought poorer people can't afford to drink beer and coffee regularly? Which is it? The idea that moderation comes with intelligence or wealth is a false stereotype that deserves to die. Plenty of wealthy people and plenty of intelligent people have addiction problems. Wealth and intelligence are bad predictors of addiction. A far better predictor is family history. [1] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2686145 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/articl... [2] https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1112010 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1112010 [3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25156996/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25156996/