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> And that if I just took off my rose-tinted glasses, I'd realize my Rust code is buggy, unsafe, slow, and hard to maintain I didn't get the impression. I und

> And that if I just took off my rose-tinted glasses, I'd realize my Rust code is buggy, unsafe, slow, and hard to maintain I didn't get the impression. I understood that Firefox talks about their success in rewriting in Rust because it's their language, they control it and are the major sponsor and user. I don't think Google or MS or any other company heavily involved in crafting programming languages for their own purposes will ever go that route for some of their core software, because they can't control the language and if they tried they would get the blame for trying.

steveklabnik 6y ago
Mozilla does not control Rust. Google and Microsoft are both already using Rust for real products.
- chinesempire 6y ago
  Not core. There will never be Rust in Chrome or in Office. Mozilla controls Rust because it's the largest Rust user. Just like Google controls Go, even though it's opensource. You said it yourself "the only real way to get a job working on Rust was to work at Mozilla"
  - steveklabnik 6y ago
    > There will never be Rust in Chrome There is a branch in the repository right now trying it out. Rust is also used in ChromeOS. > Mozilla controls Rust because it's the largest Rust user. Mozilla is not the largest Rust user, nor does the largest user control the language. Governance is consensus-based, and anyone is eligible to join. > You said it yourself "the only real way to get a job working on Rust was to work at Mozilla" I may have said that a long, long time ago, but it's not true today. The Rust team at Mozilla has been shrinking, and other companies have been letting folks work on Rust as part of their job. And volunteers are like, 10x-25x more numerous than people who are paid to do so.
    - chinesempire 6y ago
      > There is a branch in the repository right now trying it out. Rust is also used in ChromeOS. ChromeOS is a dead product. > Mozilla is not the largest Rust user Who is then? > Governance is consensus-based, and anyone is eligible to join. Same thing Google says about Go. If Google is really interested in Rust I don't believe they will let the community keep the governance, I might be wrong, but better safe than sorry. Is Google trying to take control over Rust?
      - steveklabnik 6y ago
        It's really clear that no matter what evidence I provide, you're going to dismiss it, so I just won't bother anymore.
        chinesempire 6y ago
        It's called a discussion. You're not even aknowledging the fact that there could be different opinions on the matter, if I was you I wouldn't play the card "you're dismissing evidence". You work on Rust, that's a fact, I'm giving you credit for it. Can you say it doesn't affect your judgement at all?
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Rust is now an official UWP / WinUI binding, part of Project Reunion, core Windows platform, and is shipping on Visual Studio Code and Azure IoT products. Office will eventually make use of it.
    - chinesempire 6y ago
      > Rust is now an official UWP / WinUI binding, part of Project Reunion, core Windows platform That's good to know! It appears Microsoft can be both bad and good. > Office will eventually make use of it. I have to see it before I believe it. Office team is not "developers who make third party Windows apps so Microsoft indirectly profit from them" There was a time when MS embraced Java, we've never seen it in Office though.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        Microsoft is now a OpenJDK contributor has bought jClarity, Java has had several talks at Build and has parity with .NET on Azure SDKs, Office doesn't dictate all business lines. And I bet you weren't reverse engineering Office to discover which ActiveX were implemented in J++ instead of VB 6.
        chinesempire 6y ago
        > Microsoft is now a OpenJDK contributor so what? MS also ships a complete Linux distro now. > Java has had several talks at Build and has parity with .NET on Azure SDKs, Office doesn't dictate all business lines. And Linux is the most installed OS on Azure... I can buy milk from my butcher, but his core product is still meat. you still fail to see the difference between what they offer to potential clients and what they use internally. They are expanding the offer but are still a software house in the end. It also means that MS is using its weight on free (as in free speech) technologies, like Google has done before with other OSS projects and we all know how it ended. > Office doesn't dictate all business lines Obviously, it doesn't. It only generates 33% of the revenues and 39% of the operative margins. The second largest segment for revenues, behind computing (mainly HW), the first for margins. Cloud comes third - and last - for revenues and second for profits with a pretty strong growth - less than 2018 but still strong -, but keep in mind that they include the Office 365 online offer and Gaming cloud in the segment. > And I bet you weren't reverse engineering Office to discover which ActiveX were implemented in J++ instead of VB 6. Would you bet ten millions dollar on it?

steveklabnik 6y ago

Mozilla does not control Rust. Google and Microsoft are both already using Rust for real products.

chinesempire 6y ago
Not core. There will never be Rust in Chrome or in Office. Mozilla controls Rust because it's the largest Rust user. Just like Google controls Go, even though it's opensource. You said it yourself "the only real way to get a job working on Rust was to work at Mozilla"
- steveklabnik 6y ago
  > There will never be Rust in Chrome There is a branch in the repository right now trying it out. Rust is also used in ChromeOS. > Mozilla controls Rust because it's the largest Rust user. Mozilla is not the largest Rust user, nor does the largest user control the language. Governance is consensus-based, and anyone is eligible to join. > You said it yourself "the only real way to get a job working on Rust was to work at Mozilla" I may have said that a long, long time ago, but it's not true today. The Rust team at Mozilla has been shrinking, and other companies have been letting folks work on Rust as part of their job. And volunteers are like, 10x-25x more numerous than people who are paid to do so.
  - chinesempire 6y ago
    > There is a branch in the repository right now trying it out. Rust is also used in ChromeOS. ChromeOS is a dead product. > Mozilla is not the largest Rust user Who is then? > Governance is consensus-based, and anyone is eligible to join. Same thing Google says about Go. If Google is really interested in Rust I don't believe they will let the community keep the governance, I might be wrong, but better safe than sorry. Is Google trying to take control over Rust?
    - steveklabnik 6y ago
      It's really clear that no matter what evidence I provide, you're going to dismiss it, so I just won't bother anymore.
      - chinesempire 6y ago
        It's called a discussion. You're not even aknowledging the fact that there could be different opinions on the matter, if I was you I wouldn't play the card "you're dismissing evidence". You work on Rust, that's a fact, I'm giving you credit for it. Can you say it doesn't affect your judgement at all?
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Rust is now an official UWP / WinUI binding, part of Project Reunion, core Windows platform, and is shipping on Visual Studio Code and Azure IoT products. Office will eventually make use of it.
  - chinesempire 6y ago
    > Rust is now an official UWP / WinUI binding, part of Project Reunion, core Windows platform That's good to know! It appears Microsoft can be both bad and good. > Office will eventually make use of it. I have to see it before I believe it. Office team is not "developers who make third party Windows apps so Microsoft indirectly profit from them" There was a time when MS embraced Java, we've never seen it in Office though.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Microsoft is now a OpenJDK contributor has bought jClarity, Java has had several talks at Build and has parity with .NET on Azure SDKs, Office doesn't dictate all business lines. And I bet you weren't reverse engineering Office to discover which ActiveX were implemented in J++ instead of VB 6.
      - chinesempire 6y ago
        > Microsoft is now a OpenJDK contributor so what? MS also ships a complete Linux distro now. > Java has had several talks at Build and has parity with .NET on Azure SDKs, Office doesn't dictate all business lines. And Linux is the most installed OS on Azure... I can buy milk from my butcher, but his core product is still meat. you still fail to see the difference between what they offer to potential clients and what they use internally. They are expanding the offer but are still a software house in the end. It also means that MS is using its weight on free (as in free speech) technologies, like Google has done before with other OSS projects and we all know how it ended. > Office doesn't dictate all business lines Obviously, it doesn't. It only generates 33% of the revenues and 39% of the operative margins. The second largest segment for revenues, behind computing (mainly HW), the first for margins. Cloud comes third - and last - for revenues and second for profits with a pretty strong growth - less than 2018 but still strong -, but keep in mind that they include the Office 365 online offer and Gaming cloud in the segment. > And I bet you weren't reverse engineering Office to discover which ActiveX were implemented in J++ instead of VB 6. Would you bet ten millions dollar on it?