5 ms·

The mirror of this premise is also interesting; think, for example, of all the extremely complicated narratives woven to explain COVID-19 (5G, Bill Gates, etc.)

The mirror of this premise is also interesting; think, for example, of all the extremely complicated narratives woven to explain COVID-19 (5G, Bill Gates, etc.) On the other hand, maybe those narratives could also be considered a kind of simplification, which is to say they all boil down to "it's the fault of {fill in the blank evil rich person or organization}" as opposed to what's more likely to be the truth, which is that nature and the physical world are full of complexity and randomness.

mattigames 6y ago
Yeah, people look for someone to blame even for the good things (think Religion) because it gives them a framework they feel they understand.
- unclebucknasty 6y ago
  But this is not simply the nature of people to search for understanding. It's also down to the willful exploitation of events in bad faith. Especially in these days--where there's a pitched ideological/political battle raging, coupled with an assault on "knowing"--that seems to be the larger driving force.
new2628 6y ago
Honest question: does anyone really think that 5G is related to Covid, or is this a story planted in the media to also make legitimate criticism of 5G look like fringe lunacy?
- felixgallo 6y ago
  https://www.cnet.com/health/5g-coronavirus-conspiracy-theory-sees-77-mobile-towers-burned-report-says/ https://www.cnet.com/health/5g-coronavirus-conspiracy-theory...
  - new2628 6y ago
    Exactly this type of articles raised my suspicion. It says that people have burned various towers in protest of 5G, and that there are crazy conspiracy theories linking 5G and covid, but it gives no evidence that the two are connected. What percentage of those pissed at 5G are believing this conspiracy theory? 10%? 1%? 0.01%?
    - felixgallo 6y ago
      Occam's Razor tells us that given that there's a bunch of facebook troll nonsense going around about 5G causing covid (which is trivial for you to find yourself, directly), and since that coincides with an upswing in both tower destruction and also threats of violence (often with assertions of causing covid) towards workers, it's probably mostly that. Why are you interested in minimizing this or finding a media-based conspiracy to overreport?
      - mistermann 6y ago
        > Occam's Razor tells us that Occam's Razor may suggest something, but the actual truth of the matter remains unknown. > Why are you interested in minimizing this or finding a media-based conspiracy to overreport? An even better question is: why/how has your mind chosen to frame his words in a specific manner that is not actually contained within what he wrote, as well as assume (without evidence) a specific intent/motivation? Was this purely conscious and deliberate, or was it more instinctual?
- ketamine__ 6y ago
  It's a very active conspiracy. I have seen anti-5G stickers around town. https://nltimes.nl/2020/04/11/five-telecom-towers-torched-possible-5g-conspiracy-arson-protest https://nltimes.nl/2020/04/11/five-telecom-towers-torched-po...
  - new2628 6y ago
    Again, it could be that being anti-5G is a reasonable stance, even if it is silly to claim that it is related to Covid. The linked article does exactly what I was suspecting: it conflates legitimate criticism with crazy criticism, trying to discredit both. Suppose someone started a bonfire in front of your house, and as you protest against it, they would spread the message that you claim that bonfires cause covid.
- dr_dshiv 6y ago
  https://scientists4wiredtech.com/what-are-4g-5g/resonance-beings-of-frequency/ https://scientists4wiredtech.com/what-are-4g-5g/resonance-be... I'm generally interested in the subculture
- mistermann 6y ago
  https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/either-or https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/either-o... > used to refer to a situation in which there is a choice between two different plans of action, but both together are not possible The actual state of affairs is that both are occurring. One example is this recently popular story on Reddit: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/4aydjg/somehow-this-wild-hoax-bill-gates-anti-vaxx-video-doesnt-violate-youtubes-policies https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/4aydjg/somehow-this-wild-... > A bonkers hoax video about Bill Gates has been making the rounds on social media — and it’s setting the anti-vaxx conspiracy world on fire. > The video claims to show Gates briefing the CIA in 2005 about a vaccine to immunize religious fanatics. The video, which is obviously faked, is getting gobbled up by online conspiracy theorists who’ve latched onto the Microsoft co-founder as the mastermind behind the coronavirus pandemic. A lovely narrative, but if one actually bothered to read the article with critical thinking skills engaged (as would be the case if the article was written by conspiracy theorists, rather than written about conspiracy theorists), it would be obvious that the author didn't even make an attempt to provide any evidence that substantiates the claim that this story is "setting the anti-vaxx conspiracy world on fire". This is very typically the case with articles about conspiracy theorists, which insinuate (usually without saying explicitly) that all(!) conspiracy theorists believe <x>, and the "evidence" for these claims, if any is provided at all, is almost without exception a simplistic narrative, or another article of the exact same form. An example of just such an article was even provided as evidence to answer a question in this very HN thread! [1] If one was to actually do the most basic of fact checking on such articles (the vice.com one above for example), they would frequently encounter posts like this one[2] where the author, rather than "gobbling up the obviously faked video", instead clearly points out the obvious propaganda techniques used by the MSM. You'd think someone would eventually catch on and say something about this obviously recurring technique in news reporting, but such exposes would occur you know where...in a conspiracy theory community, and you know [3] what they say about conspiracy theorists! [1] https://nltimes.nl/2020/04/11/five-telecom-towers-torched-possible-5g-conspiracy-arson-protest https://nltimes.nl/2020/04/11/five-telecom-towers-torched-po... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/gpj202/bill_gates_hoax_video_talking_at_dod/ https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/gpj202/bill_gat... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_conditioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_conditioning
clairity 6y ago
> 'they all boil down to "it's the fault of {fill in the blank evil rich person or organization}"' that's (again) the fundamental attribution error, another type of bias where we attribute to people outcomes that are more attributable to situations. besides, most prevalent among the covid narratives is the fear and panic of the unknown--the complexity and randomness (of nature) as you put it--so quite the opposite of what you narrate. the simple narrative is that covid is caused by a respiratory virus, and while there's lots to learn about viruses overall, we know plenty enough about them not to be in a panic over it, and to develop reasonable policies entirely from the knowledge we have. but that's too simple for our overwhelming fear of the unknown, untamped by reason, and many of us seek other, often more complicated narratives to assuage our anxiety.
friendlybus 6y ago
The meanings behind those stories go deeper than blame and have their own elegant source. There is a simple but powerful alegbra to the romance in stories. The truth being complexity and randomness is just another part of the narrative.
mistermann 6y ago
> think, for example, of all the extremely complicated narratives woven to explain COVID-19 As well as the simplistic counter-narratives deployed to combat those narratives: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23295618 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23295618 This isn't a battle of facts vs facts as most people believe, but rather a battle of memes vs memes, where both sides are typically not telling the whole truth, but usually for different reasons. It's fascinating to observe the battle (and forum commentary on the battle) from an abstract perspective, if you can manage it, but not many people seem to even know such a perspective even exists, and it certainly isn't something we're taught in school or at home, at least "in The West".

mattigames 6y ago

Yeah, people look for someone to blame even for the good things (think Religion) because it gives them a framework they feel they understand.

unclebucknasty 6y ago
But this is not simply the nature of people to search for understanding. It's also down to the willful exploitation of events in bad faith. Especially in these days--where there's a pitched ideological/political battle raging, coupled with an assault on "knowing"--that seems to be the larger driving force.

new2628 6y ago

Honest question: does anyone really think that 5G is related to Covid, or is this a story planted in the media to also make legitimate criticism of 5G look like fringe lunacy?

felixgallo 6y ago
https://www.cnet.com/health/5g-coronavirus-conspiracy-theory-sees-77-mobile-towers-burned-report-says/ https://www.cnet.com/health/5g-coronavirus-conspiracy-theory...
- new2628 6y ago
  Exactly this type of articles raised my suspicion. It says that people have burned various towers in protest of 5G, and that there are crazy conspiracy theories linking 5G and covid, but it gives no evidence that the two are connected. What percentage of those pissed at 5G are believing this conspiracy theory? 10%? 1%? 0.01%?
  - felixgallo 6y ago
    Occam's Razor tells us that given that there's a bunch of facebook troll nonsense going around about 5G causing covid (which is trivial for you to find yourself, directly), and since that coincides with an upswing in both tower destruction and also threats of violence (often with assertions of causing covid) towards workers, it's probably mostly that. Why are you interested in minimizing this or finding a media-based conspiracy to overreport?
    - mistermann 6y ago
      > Occam's Razor tells us that Occam's Razor may suggest something, but the actual truth of the matter remains unknown. > Why are you interested in minimizing this or finding a media-based conspiracy to overreport? An even better question is: why/how has your mind chosen to frame his words in a specific manner that is not actually contained within what he wrote, as well as assume (without evidence) a specific intent/motivation? Was this purely conscious and deliberate, or was it more instinctual?
ketamine__ 6y ago
It's a very active conspiracy. I have seen anti-5G stickers around town. https://nltimes.nl/2020/04/11/five-telecom-towers-torched-possible-5g-conspiracy-arson-protest https://nltimes.nl/2020/04/11/five-telecom-towers-torched-po...
- new2628 6y ago
  Again, it could be that being anti-5G is a reasonable stance, even if it is silly to claim that it is related to Covid. The linked article does exactly what I was suspecting: it conflates legitimate criticism with crazy criticism, trying to discredit both. Suppose someone started a bonfire in front of your house, and as you protest against it, they would spread the message that you claim that bonfires cause covid.
dr_dshiv 6y ago
https://scientists4wiredtech.com/what-are-4g-5g/resonance-beings-of-frequency/ https://scientists4wiredtech.com/what-are-4g-5g/resonance-be... I'm generally interested in the subculture
mistermann 6y ago
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/either-or https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/either-o... > used to refer to a situation in which there is a choice between two different plans of action, but both together are not possible The actual state of affairs is that both are occurring. One example is this recently popular story on Reddit: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/4aydjg/somehow-this-wild-hoax-bill-gates-anti-vaxx-video-doesnt-violate-youtubes-policies https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/4aydjg/somehow-this-wild-... > A bonkers hoax video about Bill Gates has been making the rounds on social media — and it’s setting the anti-vaxx conspiracy world on fire. > The video claims to show Gates briefing the CIA in 2005 about a vaccine to immunize religious fanatics. The video, which is obviously faked, is getting gobbled up by online conspiracy theorists who’ve latched onto the Microsoft co-founder as the mastermind behind the coronavirus pandemic. A lovely narrative, but if one actually bothered to read the article with critical thinking skills engaged (as would be the case if the article was written by conspiracy theorists, rather than written about conspiracy theorists), it would be obvious that the author didn't even make an attempt to provide any evidence that substantiates the claim that this story is "setting the anti-vaxx conspiracy world on fire". This is very typically the case with articles about conspiracy theorists, which insinuate (usually without saying explicitly) that all(!) conspiracy theorists believe <x>, and the "evidence" for these claims, if any is provided at all, is almost without exception a simplistic narrative, or another article of the exact same form. An example of just such an article was even provided as evidence to answer a question in this very HN thread! [1] If one was to actually do the most basic of fact checking on such articles (the vice.com one above for example), they would frequently encounter posts like this one[2] where the author, rather than "gobbling up the obviously faked video", instead clearly points out the obvious propaganda techniques used by the MSM. You'd think someone would eventually catch on and say something about this obviously recurring technique in news reporting, but such exposes would occur you know where...in a conspiracy theory community, and you know [3] what they say about conspiracy theorists! [1] https://nltimes.nl/2020/04/11/five-telecom-towers-torched-possible-5g-conspiracy-arson-protest https://nltimes.nl/2020/04/11/five-telecom-towers-torched-po... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/gpj202/bill_gates_hoax_video_talking_at_dod/ https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/gpj202/bill_gat... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_conditioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_conditioning

clairity 6y ago

> 'they all boil down to "it's the fault of {fill in the blank evil rich person or organization}"' that's (again) the fundamental attribution error, another type of bias where we attribute to people outcomes that are more attributable to situations. besides, most prevalent among the covid narratives is the fear and panic of the unknown--the complexity and randomness (of nature) as you put it--so quite the opposite of what you narrate. the simple narrative is that covid is caused by a respiratory virus, and while there's lots to learn about viruses overall, we know plenty enough about them not to be in a panic over it, and to develop reasonable policies entirely from the knowledge we have. but that's too simple for our overwhelming fear of the unknown, untamped by reason, and many of us seek other, often more complicated narratives to assuage our anxiety.

friendlybus 6y ago

The meanings behind those stories go deeper than blame and have their own elegant source. There is a simple but powerful alegbra to the romance in stories. The truth being complexity and randomness is just another part of the narrative.

mistermann 6y ago

> think, for example, of all the extremely complicated narratives woven to explain COVID-19 As well as the simplistic counter-narratives deployed to combat those narratives: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23295618 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23295618 This isn't a battle of facts vs facts as most people believe, but rather a battle of memes vs memes, where both sides are typically not telling the whole truth, but usually for different reasons. It's fascinating to observe the battle (and forum commentary on the battle) from an abstract perspective, if you can manage it, but not many people seem to even know such a perspective even exists, and it certainly isn't something we're taught in school or at home, at least "in The West".