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And yet, lots of software developers do quit and spend a few months off, and then go work somewhere else. Because managers do threaten and bully employees. Th

by ken 6y ago

And yet, lots of software developers do quit and spend a few months off, and then go work somewhere else. Because managers do threaten and bully employees. This is considered 'normal' for the field. One running joke in my circles is that developers never 'take vacation'. They simply wait a few months between jobs, because they're never at one job for more than a year or two. The other way to look at this is: companies pay programmers ridiculous salaries because the working conditions are so hated. Junior programmers (even those who have never been to college) are paid about as well as dentists, and they still often quit after a couple years. This is way above the $75K happiness threshold. We literally can't pay them enough to stay working for us! Hypothesis: software development is one of the few industries that I've interacted with where the workers haven't organized yet. When there's no union for collective bargaining, what lever does an individual employee have, other than asking for yet more money, or quitting? P.S., In what industries do you commonly see managers threatening or bullying workers? I haven't seen that at all.

luckylion 6y ago
If the ridiculous money is (partly) compensation for the bad circumstances, would you expect the compensation to sink if a union improves the situation? I'm not sure how this is in different countries. I've not heard that many horror stories in Germany, but most work here is also not VC-backed startups, and the compensation is much lower in comparison. The non-vc-investing might of course also be a reason for lower compensation, when your valuation can't explode, attracting the top developers is less of a priority. > P.S., In what industries do you commonly see managers threatening or bullying workers? I haven't seen that at all. Sales (a lot!), restaurants (pretty much every line cook I've ever spoken to mentions it, and what I read in comments online sounds like it's the same in all countries), call centers, transportation off the top of my head. The main difference is that they're usually not paid well.
toyg 6y ago
> companies pay programmers ridiculous salaries because the working conditions are so hated. I think any blue-collar worker would be laughing his ass off at this statement. > paid about as well as dentists, and they still often quit after a couple years. This is way above the $75K happiness threshold. Fuck-you-money actually enables this sort of freedom, since you're less scared of going jobless for a few months thanks to all the fat you've stored. So might as well quit and think about things for a while. Over certain levels, the meaning of one's job can take priority over immediate compensation. > We literally can't pay them enough to stay working for us! In the end, everyone deep down would rather not have to work for someone else, or to not work at all. Programmers in tech hotspots are lucky enough to actually be able to do it, and pretty often too, without any serious repercussion. For many, this is a golden age the likes of which we've never seen. > In what industries do you commonly see managers threatening or bullying workers? All of them - we wouldn't have unions otherwise. There is a reason the word "boss" has negative connotations.
- majewsky 6y ago
  > In the end, everyone deep down would rather not have to work for someone else, or to not work at all. I very much disagree. I like that my company cares about things like sales/marketing/HR/finance so I don't have to. And anyway, for most jobs, you need a supporting structure that has your back, like a company or a government agency or whatever. Sure, you could start your own company, but at that point you'll most likely spend more time doing management rather than actual work. I like that I can focus on my technical role since I'm very much not a manager type.
  - toyg 6y ago
    If you didn’t have to earn money to live, you wouldn’t need to have a company or whatnot - that is my point.
    - majewsky 6y ago
      You still want to accomplish goals, and most goals require some sort of organization that bears the initial/ongoing investment and provides you with the back office etc. For instance, even if you're the best surgeon in the world, you won't be about to run a hospital all on your own.
      - toyg 6y ago
        > You still want to accomplish goals why do that when Civilization V exists?

by ken 6y ago

luckylion 6y ago

If the ridiculous money is (partly) compensation for the bad circumstances, would you expect the compensation to sink if a union improves the situation? I'm not sure how this is in different countries. I've not heard that many horror stories in Germany, but most work here is also not VC-backed startups, and the compensation is much lower in comparison. The non-vc-investing might of course also be a reason for lower compensation, when your valuation can't explode, attracting the top developers is less of a priority. > P.S., In what industries do you commonly see managers threatening or bullying workers? I haven't seen that at all. Sales (a lot!), restaurants (pretty much every line cook I've ever spoken to mentions it, and what I read in comments online sounds like it's the same in all countries), call centers, transportation off the top of my head. The main difference is that they're usually not paid well.

toyg 6y ago

> companies pay programmers ridiculous salaries because the working conditions are so hated. I think any blue-collar worker would be laughing his ass off at this statement. > paid about as well as dentists, and they still often quit after a couple years. This is way above the $75K happiness threshold. Fuck-you-money actually enables this sort of freedom, since you're less scared of going jobless for a few months thanks to all the fat you've stored. So might as well quit and think about things for a while. Over certain levels, the meaning of one's job can take priority over immediate compensation. > We literally can't pay them enough to stay working for us! In the end, everyone deep down would rather not have to work for someone else, or to not work at all. Programmers in tech hotspots are lucky enough to actually be able to do it, and pretty often too, without any serious repercussion. For many, this is a golden age the likes of which we've never seen. > In what industries do you commonly see managers threatening or bullying workers? All of them - we wouldn't have unions otherwise. There is a reason the word "boss" has negative connotations.

majewsky 6y ago
> In the end, everyone deep down would rather not have to work for someone else, or to not work at all. I very much disagree. I like that my company cares about things like sales/marketing/HR/finance so I don't have to. And anyway, for most jobs, you need a supporting structure that has your back, like a company or a government agency or whatever. Sure, you could start your own company, but at that point you'll most likely spend more time doing management rather than actual work. I like that I can focus on my technical role since I'm very much not a manager type.
- toyg 6y ago
  If you didn’t have to earn money to live, you wouldn’t need to have a company or whatnot - that is my point.
  - majewsky 6y ago
    You still want to accomplish goals, and most goals require some sort of organization that bears the initial/ongoing investment and provides you with the back office etc. For instance, even if you're the best surgeon in the world, you won't be about to run a hospital all on your own.
    - toyg 6y ago
      > You still want to accomplish goals why do that when Civilization V exists?