4 ms·

Well, being good and for the public good are separate concepts in my mind. That aside, you never addressed the smoking, seatbelt or helmet laws with regard to a

Well, being good and for the public good are separate concepts in my mind. That aside, you never addressed the smoking, seatbelt or helmet laws with regard to adults. Permissible or not?

vorpalhex 6y ago
Smoking laws are restrictions. You can't smoke within 30ft of an eating establishment or in a car with a child. You want to go home and chain smoke yourself to cancer? Have fun. Likewise, you couldn't restrict smoking at home typically. Seatbelt and helmet laws are a condition of using property that isn't yours (the road). Likewise for drivers licenses and minimum road hours. A good case here is the Texas anti-sodomy law (Lawrence v Texas) that was struck down in 2006(!) after being used to go after gay men. Here Texas made claims it was acting for the public good, SC ruled the state had no presence on a private matter outside the public eye.
- BubRoss 6y ago
  What about wearing pants? Is wearing pants a compelled action?
  - vorpalhex 6y ago
    Would you be running around naked unless someone required otherwise? Some of us just enjoy wearing comfy pants.
    - fzeroracer 6y ago
      You seem to be changing the argument rather than answering the question. Do you believe public decency laws are the result of the state overextending its hand?
    - BubRoss 6y ago
      You are doging the question, maybe because you realize that you can't answer it without lying or contradicting yourself. Do you agree with the fact that you are compelled to wear clothes? After all a mask is essentially clothing.
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  > Seatbelt and helmet laws are a condition of using property that isn't yours (the road). "Mask laws" are a condition of using property that isn't yours (the road, the town square, the park, the trail). Nobody is going to force you to wear on mask on your own property.
  - vorpalhex 6y ago
    The government doesn't own public property. The public does. This is a subtle point. Now, can Wholefoods (to pick a private business) force you to wear a mask as a condition of using their store? Absolutely. Can your friend demand you wear a mask before you hang out and use their pool? Sure. Can the government demand you use a mask on non-government owned land? No. Can the government demand you wear a mask before entering a courthouse? Well, that becomes a whole thing and the answer is "maybe?".
    - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
      The word "public" was used in both cases. There is no "government" as an owner of anything. Anything not owned by individuals (within the USA) is owned by some sector of the public (either the entire nation, or a state, or a city etc. etc.). Governments do not own courthouses, they do not own national parks. Governments are the structures we use to make decisions about legal, economic and social policy. They are not owners - the public is. But I've forgotten your posting history, so I can't really tell if we're in violent agreement or if you're just flipping your terminology around.
- bloak 6y ago
  > Seatbelt and helmet laws are a condition of using property that isn't yours (the road). In England, at least, the law also applies in the (somewhat unusual) circumstances that you happen to own the road. Going meta here: There seems to be a mental condition that causes people to try to interpret everything in terms of contracts and property rights. In extreme cases it leads to phenomena like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land

Well, being good and for the public good are separate concepts in my mind. That aside, you never addressed the smoking, seatbelt or helmet laws with regard to adults. Permissible or not?

vorpalhex 6y ago

Smoking laws are restrictions. You can't smoke within 30ft of an eating establishment or in a car with a child. You want to go home and chain smoke yourself to cancer? Have fun. Likewise, you couldn't restrict smoking at home typically. Seatbelt and helmet laws are a condition of using property that isn't yours (the road). Likewise for drivers licenses and minimum road hours. A good case here is the Texas anti-sodomy law (Lawrence v Texas) that was struck down in 2006(!) after being used to go after gay men. Here Texas made claims it was acting for the public good, SC ruled the state had no presence on a private matter outside the public eye.

BubRoss 6y ago
What about wearing pants? Is wearing pants a compelled action?
- vorpalhex 6y ago
  Would you be running around naked unless someone required otherwise? Some of us just enjoy wearing comfy pants.
  - fzeroracer 6y ago
    You seem to be changing the argument rather than answering the question. Do you believe public decency laws are the result of the state overextending its hand?
  - BubRoss 6y ago
    You are doging the question, maybe because you realize that you can't answer it without lying or contradicting yourself. Do you agree with the fact that you are compelled to wear clothes? After all a mask is essentially clothing.
PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
> Seatbelt and helmet laws are a condition of using property that isn't yours (the road). "Mask laws" are a condition of using property that isn't yours (the road, the town square, the park, the trail). Nobody is going to force you to wear on mask on your own property.
- vorpalhex 6y ago
  The government doesn't own public property. The public does. This is a subtle point. Now, can Wholefoods (to pick a private business) force you to wear a mask as a condition of using their store? Absolutely. Can your friend demand you wear a mask before you hang out and use their pool? Sure. Can the government demand you use a mask on non-government owned land? No. Can the government demand you wear a mask before entering a courthouse? Well, that becomes a whole thing and the answer is "maybe?".
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
    The word "public" was used in both cases. There is no "government" as an owner of anything. Anything not owned by individuals (within the USA) is owned by some sector of the public (either the entire nation, or a state, or a city etc. etc.). Governments do not own courthouses, they do not own national parks. Governments are the structures we use to make decisions about legal, economic and social policy. They are not owners - the public is. But I've forgotten your posting history, so I can't really tell if we're in violent agreement or if you're just flipping your terminology around.
bloak 6y ago
> Seatbelt and helmet laws are a condition of using property that isn't yours (the road). In England, at least, the law also applies in the (somewhat unusual) circumstances that you happen to own the road. Going meta here: There seems to be a mental condition that causes people to try to interpret everything in terms of contracts and property rights. In extreme cases it leads to phenomena like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land