4 ms·

Could you post the specific part in which that document talks about firewalling the European internet?

TomMarius 6y ago
Here: The basis of our arguments is rooted in a new approach of the European Commission manifested in the ambitious agenda that the President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen put out in mid-February 2020. The general idea in our action plan is that Europe should play a leadership role in all digital developments. How to do that? The authors of this report are convinced that three bold action plans are required: Action Plan 1: European Cloud / European Internet A European firewall/cloud/ internet would foster a digital ecosystem in Europe based on data and innovation. It would drive competition and set standards, similar to what has happened in China in the past 20 years. The foundations of such a European cloud are democratic values, transparency, competition and data protection.
- shock 6y ago
  My reading of that text doesn't suggest a copy of the great firewall of China, it rather implies e desire to mirror the Alibaba cloud, and the whole digital ecosystem that developed in China as a result of the language barrier, among other factors.
  - TomMarius 6y ago
    The whole document is basically praising how trackable and closed the Chinese internet and "superapps" like WeChat and Alipay are. I am not convinced.
- lars_francke 6y ago
  I also see the reference to China there but it's qualified: Transparency, democratic values etc. It also never mentions anything being closed. So I don't think the original criticism/fear of a closed European Internet can be read into this. The thing this refers to - I believe - is among other things GAIA-X: https://www.bmwi.de/Redaktion/EN/Publikationen/Digitale-Welt/project-gaia-x.html https://www.bmwi.de/Redaktion/EN/Publikationen/Digitale-Welt...
  - TomMarius 6y ago
    > but it's qualified: Transparency, democratic values etc. Yeah, the communists were telling us that for 40 years. Words don't always match the reality, especially when someone is plainly talking about stuff like transparency and democratic values (what does that even mean in the context of an Internet firewall?).
    - lars_francke 6y ago
      They don't. You haven't put forward any arguments that supports your position though. You mentioned unrelated things. This is not a paper from the Chinese government or a communist party so why should. That kind of reasoning is a slippery slope in my opinion.
      - TomMarius 6y ago
        We are talking about Ursula von der Leyen, isn't that enough? Do you not know her history with internet censorship?
- AlbertoGP 6y ago
  It might help to mention the past actions of Urusla von der Leyen when she was in the German Government: “Zensursula is the online nickname given to Ursula von der Leyen, the former German Minister for Family Affairs who came under media scrutiny in 2009 for her strong advocacy of censorship laws against online content that may be deemed "inappropriate" by the federal government, especially on the issue of child pornography.” “In January 2009, Germany's Federal Ministry of Family Affairs launched the first government initiative towards more strict censorship of child pornography on the Internet. Formally known as the Access Impediment Act, it was drafted under the leadership of the Family Affairs minister Ursula von der Leyen[1], one of the staunchest advocates of Internet censorship in the federal government.” “The Act proposed a mandatory blockage of online child pornography by Internet service providers through a blacklist of illegal websites maintained by the Federal Criminal Police Office of Germany (BKA). In the following days, the legislative proposal sparked a political debate among German Internet users about whether the state may or should have an infrastructure to censor the internet.” “While the initiative was mostly geared towards taboo topics like terrorism and child pornography, the scope of online debate became focused on general censorship of content on the web. Due to her vocal support of the censorship laws, the critics dubbed the Family Affairs minister "Zensursula," a portmanteau of the German word "Zensur" (Censorship) and her first name "Ursula." The nickname quickly gave way to a slew of parodies including original songs and remixes.” https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/zensursula https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/zensursula That does not mean that the intention is to copy China, but it does indicate her propensity to favor limiting access to information by the general population.

Here: The basis of our arguments is rooted in a new approach of the European Commission manifested in the ambitious agenda that the President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen put out in mid-February 2020. The general idea in our action plan is that Europe should play a leadership role in all digital developments. How to do that? The authors of this report are convinced that three bold action plans are required: Action Plan 1: European Cloud / European Internet A European firewall/cloud/ internet would foster a digital ecosystem in Europe based on data and innovation. It would drive competition and set standards, similar to what has happened in China in the past 20 years. The foundations of such a European cloud are democratic values, transparency, competition and data protection.

shock 6y ago
My reading of that text doesn't suggest a copy of the great firewall of China, it rather implies e desire to mirror the Alibaba cloud, and the whole digital ecosystem that developed in China as a result of the language barrier, among other factors.
- TomMarius 6y ago
  The whole document is basically praising how trackable and closed the Chinese internet and "superapps" like WeChat and Alipay are. I am not convinced.
lars_francke 6y ago
I also see the reference to China there but it's qualified: Transparency, democratic values etc. It also never mentions anything being closed. So I don't think the original criticism/fear of a closed European Internet can be read into this. The thing this refers to - I believe - is among other things GAIA-X: https://www.bmwi.de/Redaktion/EN/Publikationen/Digitale-Welt/project-gaia-x.html https://www.bmwi.de/Redaktion/EN/Publikationen/Digitale-Welt...
- TomMarius 6y ago
  > but it's qualified: Transparency, democratic values etc. Yeah, the communists were telling us that for 40 years. Words don't always match the reality, especially when someone is plainly talking about stuff like transparency and democratic values (what does that even mean in the context of an Internet firewall?).
  - lars_francke 6y ago
    They don't. You haven't put forward any arguments that supports your position though. You mentioned unrelated things. This is not a paper from the Chinese government or a communist party so why should. That kind of reasoning is a slippery slope in my opinion.
    - TomMarius 6y ago
      We are talking about Ursula von der Leyen, isn't that enough? Do you not know her history with internet censorship?
AlbertoGP 6y ago
It might help to mention the past actions of Urusla von der Leyen when she was in the German Government: “Zensursula is the online nickname given to Ursula von der Leyen, the former German Minister for Family Affairs who came under media scrutiny in 2009 for her strong advocacy of censorship laws against online content that may be deemed "inappropriate" by the federal government, especially on the issue of child pornography.” “In January 2009, Germany's Federal Ministry of Family Affairs launched the first government initiative towards more strict censorship of child pornography on the Internet. Formally known as the Access Impediment Act, it was drafted under the leadership of the Family Affairs minister Ursula von der Leyen[1], one of the staunchest advocates of Internet censorship in the federal government.” “The Act proposed a mandatory blockage of online child pornography by Internet service providers through a blacklist of illegal websites maintained by the Federal Criminal Police Office of Germany (BKA). In the following days, the legislative proposal sparked a political debate among German Internet users about whether the state may or should have an infrastructure to censor the internet.” “While the initiative was mostly geared towards taboo topics like terrorism and child pornography, the scope of online debate became focused on general censorship of content on the web. Due to her vocal support of the censorship laws, the critics dubbed the Family Affairs minister "Zensursula," a portmanteau of the German word "Zensur" (Censorship) and her first name "Ursula." The nickname quickly gave way to a slew of parodies including original songs and remixes.” https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/zensursula https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/zensursula That does not mean that the intention is to copy China, but it does indicate her propensity to favor limiting access to information by the general population.