7 ms·

I've always found it ironic that in our climate of anti-immigration (including legal immigration) that the person to save our industry of so much American pride

by fma 6y ago

I've always found it ironic that in our climate of anti-immigration (including legal immigration) that the person to save our industry of so much American pride, the manned space program, is an African immigrant. Many people I talk to (I know, anecdote) don't know he moved to the US to pursue the American dream. I fear what what happens to the US when the next Elon Musk stays put, because the American Dream doesn't want them. Congratulations to Musk, and best wishes to the 2 astronauts that will make history.

itsoktocry 6y ago
>is an African immigrant. He came from privilege and wealth from colonial South Africa to Canada. Bit of a stretch to paint his story as an "African immigrant moving to the US to pursue the American Dream."
- chrischattin 6y ago
  How is that a stretch? That's literally what he is. Sounds like you're hung up on some other issue.
  - dogma1138 6y ago
    Well he did technically immigrate to the US from Canada. Musk emigrated to Canada while Apartheid was still in place in South Africa, while calling him an African immigrant isn’t completely technically incorrect it is quite far from what circumstances most people would imagine that phrasing to mean.
    - fma 6y ago
      Not sure who "most people" are but the circumstances of all immigrants have only 1 thing in common. Their original citizenship is not the USA. If others have a perceived stereotype, then they should check that at the door. It really can't get any more black and white than that. The fact of the matter is, in an atmosphere of reduced enrollment by foreign students, we would have less chances of an Elon Musk type person. Whilst before 2016 it was growing, since 2016 enrollment by international students in universities has been declined. I'm sure you know Musk came to the US for college. Trump administration of course blames "higher costs"...funny given the global economic boom, everyone has more money and the survey says about 50% of Chinese and Indians cites the political climate "would prevent them from applying to a U.S. business school." https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2019/11/18/international-enrollments-declined-undergraduate-graduate-and https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2019/11/18...
- fma 6y ago
  I don't know how much his family was worth growing up, but I guarantee you he's worth hundreds times now than before and it's appalling that anyone would discount that kind of achievement. He's quoted as saying... "I would have come here from any country," he says. "The U.S. is where great things are possible." If that's not pursuing the American Dream...then I don't know what is. https://www.inc.com/magazine/20071201/entrepreneur-of-the-year-elon-musk.html https://www.inc.com/magazine/20071201/entrepreneur-of-the-ye...
  - dopamean 6y ago
    No one you are replying to is discounting anything. Also, becoming obscenely wealthy later in life does not preclude someone from having come from great privilege.
- randoramax 6y ago
  > He came from privilege and wealth from colonial South Africa to Canada He turned out to be a complete asshole so that doesn't matter. Him siding with white nationalists, the whole pill thing... No, he better go back to Africa with his billions, go fix the world from there.
ctdonath 6y ago
Stop misrepresenting the point. Careful what you conflate. We do not have a "climate of anti-immigration". The issue is ILLEGAL immigration. Musk is a legal immigrant. Trump's wife is a legal immigrant. My wife is a legal immigrant. Few are actually opposed to legal immigration. Most either are legal immigrants, or descended therefrom just a few generations back. Yes there's a few marginal idiots, but they're ... marginal.
- dwmcqueen 6y ago
  You added a point not exactly accurate. The problem also are people who bend the rules and immigrate to this country not in line with our laws - like Trump's wife - because they are privileged. Illegal immigration of all kinds is the issue - including immigration under false pretenses.
- zucker42 6y ago
  Many people are opposed to expanding legal immigration. From what I understand it's currently quite hard to get into the U.S. legally.
  - fma 6y ago
    The current climate we are in wants reduced legal immigration as well. Easy examples (and I don't even follow immigration news) are 1) Wanting to not allow immigrants to sponsor their parents anymore 2) Not issuing green cards to reduce the spread of corona virus. You know what actually reduces spread of corona virus? wearing masks, which Trump isn't in support of. https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2020/04/23/new-trump-immigration-order-does-what-senate-rejected-in-2018/#6f5c5d171f10 https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2020/04/23/new-t...
- ericye16 6y ago
  No, there's definitely a climate of anti-immigration. There's been plenty of actions recently to make it harder for people to legally immigrate, like increased RFE's and H1b denials, suspension of green card issuance and a rumoured plan to stop OPT for F-1 students. Ask yourself this: do you think the climate supports increasing or decreasing the level of migration? Imo the legal/illegal immigration distinction is meaningless because you can _change_ what is legal or illegal. Someone who is "against illegal immigration but for legal immigration" could hold any belief from "we should have zero family-based migration" to open borders.
coldtea 6y ago
>I've always found it ironic that in our climate of anti-immigration (including legal immigration) that the person to save our industry of so much American pride, the manned space program, is an African immigrant. Well, on the other hand, the anti-immigration sentiment is not really against privileged, well-educated, white entrepreneur immigrants...
TMWNN 6y ago
The US will always welcome smart, talented people from around the world who wish to enter the country legally. The US is finally turning away unskilled peasants that (in the case of many from Andean highlands, for example) aren't literate in even their home countries' languages, and have been for decades flooding across the border contrary to laws, and are meaningfully changing the demographics of the nation without a) support from voters and b) bringing absolutely nothing in the form of human or technical capital to justify their presence.
- ryanwaggoner 6y ago
  ”Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
  - TMWNN 6y ago
    First, we do not use bad poetry added to the base of the Statue of Liberty 20 years after the fact as a fundraiser as a substitute for actual immigration law that elected representatives have voted on. Second, every single immigrant who arrived at Ellis Island was inspected. They were not admitted if they failed health examinations, or if they did not have proof of either a financial sponsor or sufficient funds to support themselves. Third, if the US economy reverts to a situation where masses of unskilled laborers can meaningfully contribute, and there is no welfare state that pays people for not working, you'll be the first to know.
    - QuadmasterXLII 6y ago
      Law is not morality. I know that, you know that, evidently the high ups in the Republican Party who hire teams of illegal immigrants in their personal lives know that. People who think law is morality castrated Turing because it was the law, stone victims of rape to death because that’s the law, turn in escapes slaves because that is the law. I don’t associate with them.
- QuadmasterXLII 6y ago
mydongle 6y ago
It's funny to think very few people even recognize him as an African.
- SenHeng 6y ago
  I recognise his accent, but few people have experience associating long term with South Africans.
  - xxpor 6y ago
    His accent is also really mild, relatively speaking
dntbnmpls 6y ago
> I've always found it ironic that in our climate of anti-immigration (including legal immigration) that the person to save our industry of so much American pride, the manned space program, is an African immigrant. That's quite a pathetic agenda-driven reach. His parents were canadian citizens, making him a canadian citizen. Also, Musk's maternal grandfather was born in america and he has ancestral ties to the Pennsylvannia Dutch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk Also, Musk attained his US citizenship as a canadian because it is easier to attain US citizenship as a canadian than a south african. In other words, musk immigrated to the US from canada, not south africa. So not quite the "african" "immigrant" story you are desperately trying to frame. Whether you are pro or anti-immigration, Musk isn't the typical immigration story. He came from wealth, he came from a fellow anglo nation and had ties to the US. It's not anything like what an african or most other immigrants experience.
- fma 6y ago
  Sorry, but there's no typical immigrant story. The world is a diverse place and everyone has their own stories or experiences. What's pathetic is you don't realize or appreciate that. I'm sorry you have perceived stereotypes of immigrants.
  - dntbnmpls 6y ago
    > Sorry, but there's no typical immigrant story. Yes there is. It's the immigrant story shared by the vast majority of immigrants. Musk's "african" "immigrant" story is atypical. Just lik Rupert Murdoch "harrowing" and "difficult" journey to become an american citizen. Good god. > The world is a diverse place and everyone has their own stories or experiences. Sure. But within that is a typical and atypical story. When you say "african immigrant", nobody thinks elon musk for a good reason.

by fma 6y ago

itsoktocry 6y ago

>is an African immigrant. He came from privilege and wealth from colonial South Africa to Canada. Bit of a stretch to paint his story as an "African immigrant moving to the US to pursue the American Dream."

chrischattin 6y ago
How is that a stretch? That's literally what he is. Sounds like you're hung up on some other issue.
- dogma1138 6y ago
  Well he did technically immigrate to the US from Canada. Musk emigrated to Canada while Apartheid was still in place in South Africa, while calling him an African immigrant isn’t completely technically incorrect it is quite far from what circumstances most people would imagine that phrasing to mean.
  - fma 6y ago
    Not sure who "most people" are but the circumstances of all immigrants have only 1 thing in common. Their original citizenship is not the USA. If others have a perceived stereotype, then they should check that at the door. It really can't get any more black and white than that. The fact of the matter is, in an atmosphere of reduced enrollment by foreign students, we would have less chances of an Elon Musk type person. Whilst before 2016 it was growing, since 2016 enrollment by international students in universities has been declined. I'm sure you know Musk came to the US for college. Trump administration of course blames "higher costs"...funny given the global economic boom, everyone has more money and the survey says about 50% of Chinese and Indians cites the political climate "would prevent them from applying to a U.S. business school." https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2019/11/18/international-enrollments-declined-undergraduate-graduate-and https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2019/11/18...
fma 6y ago
I don't know how much his family was worth growing up, but I guarantee you he's worth hundreds times now than before and it's appalling that anyone would discount that kind of achievement. He's quoted as saying... "I would have come here from any country," he says. "The U.S. is where great things are possible." If that's not pursuing the American Dream...then I don't know what is. https://www.inc.com/magazine/20071201/entrepreneur-of-the-year-elon-musk.html https://www.inc.com/magazine/20071201/entrepreneur-of-the-ye...
- dopamean 6y ago
  No one you are replying to is discounting anything. Also, becoming obscenely wealthy later in life does not preclude someone from having come from great privilege.
randoramax 6y ago
> He came from privilege and wealth from colonial South Africa to Canada He turned out to be a complete asshole so that doesn't matter. Him siding with white nationalists, the whole pill thing... No, he better go back to Africa with his billions, go fix the world from there.

ctdonath 6y ago

Stop misrepresenting the point. Careful what you conflate. We do not have a "climate of anti-immigration". The issue is ILLEGAL immigration. Musk is a legal immigrant. Trump's wife is a legal immigrant. My wife is a legal immigrant. Few are actually opposed to legal immigration. Most either are legal immigrants, or descended therefrom just a few generations back. Yes there's a few marginal idiots, but they're ... marginal.

dwmcqueen 6y ago
You added a point not exactly accurate. The problem also are people who bend the rules and immigrate to this country not in line with our laws - like Trump's wife - because they are privileged. Illegal immigration of all kinds is the issue - including immigration under false pretenses.
zucker42 6y ago
Many people are opposed to expanding legal immigration. From what I understand it's currently quite hard to get into the U.S. legally.
- fma 6y ago
  The current climate we are in wants reduced legal immigration as well. Easy examples (and I don't even follow immigration news) are 1) Wanting to not allow immigrants to sponsor their parents anymore 2) Not issuing green cards to reduce the spread of corona virus. You know what actually reduces spread of corona virus? wearing masks, which Trump isn't in support of. https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2020/04/23/new-trump-immigration-order-does-what-senate-rejected-in-2018/#6f5c5d171f10 https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2020/04/23/new-t...
ericye16 6y ago
No, there's definitely a climate of anti-immigration. There's been plenty of actions recently to make it harder for people to legally immigrate, like increased RFE's and H1b denials, suspension of green card issuance and a rumoured plan to stop OPT for F-1 students. Ask yourself this: do you think the climate supports increasing or decreasing the level of migration? Imo the legal/illegal immigration distinction is meaningless because you can _change_ what is legal or illegal. Someone who is "against illegal immigration but for legal immigration" could hold any belief from "we should have zero family-based migration" to open borders.

coldtea 6y ago

>I've always found it ironic that in our climate of anti-immigration (including legal immigration) that the person to save our industry of so much American pride, the manned space program, is an African immigrant. Well, on the other hand, the anti-immigration sentiment is not really against privileged, well-educated, white entrepreneur immigrants...

TMWNN 6y ago

The US will always welcome smart, talented people from around the world who wish to enter the country legally. The US is finally turning away unskilled peasants that (in the case of many from Andean highlands, for example) aren't literate in even their home countries' languages, and have been for decades flooding across the border contrary to laws, and are meaningfully changing the demographics of the nation without a) support from voters and b) bringing absolutely nothing in the form of human or technical capital to justify their presence.

ryanwaggoner 6y ago
”Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
- TMWNN 6y ago
  First, we do not use bad poetry added to the base of the Statue of Liberty 20 years after the fact as a fundraiser as a substitute for actual immigration law that elected representatives have voted on. Second, every single immigrant who arrived at Ellis Island was inspected. They were not admitted if they failed health examinations, or if they did not have proof of either a financial sponsor or sufficient funds to support themselves. Third, if the US economy reverts to a situation where masses of unskilled laborers can meaningfully contribute, and there is no welfare state that pays people for not working, you'll be the first to know.
  - QuadmasterXLII 6y ago
    Law is not morality. I know that, you know that, evidently the high ups in the Republican Party who hire teams of illegal immigrants in their personal lives know that. People who think law is morality castrated Turing because it was the law, stone victims of rape to death because that’s the law, turn in escapes slaves because that is the law. I don’t associate with them.
QuadmasterXLII 6y ago

mydongle 6y ago

It's funny to think very few people even recognize him as an African.

SenHeng 6y ago
I recognise his accent, but few people have experience associating long term with South Africans.
- xxpor 6y ago
  His accent is also really mild, relatively speaking

dntbnmpls 6y ago

> I've always found it ironic that in our climate of anti-immigration (including legal immigration) that the person to save our industry of so much American pride, the manned space program, is an African immigrant. That's quite a pathetic agenda-driven reach. His parents were canadian citizens, making him a canadian citizen. Also, Musk's maternal grandfather was born in america and he has ancestral ties to the Pennsylvannia Dutch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk Also, Musk attained his US citizenship as a canadian because it is easier to attain US citizenship as a canadian than a south african. In other words, musk immigrated to the US from canada, not south africa. So not quite the "african" "immigrant" story you are desperately trying to frame. Whether you are pro or anti-immigration, Musk isn't the typical immigration story. He came from wealth, he came from a fellow anglo nation and had ties to the US. It's not anything like what an african or most other immigrants experience.

fma 6y ago
Sorry, but there's no typical immigrant story. The world is a diverse place and everyone has their own stories or experiences. What's pathetic is you don't realize or appreciate that. I'm sorry you have perceived stereotypes of immigrants.
- dntbnmpls 6y ago
  > Sorry, but there's no typical immigrant story. Yes there is. It's the immigrant story shared by the vast majority of immigrants. Musk's "african" "immigrant" story is atypical. Just lik Rupert Murdoch "harrowing" and "difficult" journey to become an american citizen. Good god. > The world is a diverse place and everyone has their own stories or experiences. Sure. But within that is a typical and atypical story. When you say "african immigrant", nobody thinks elon musk for a good reason.