9 ms·

Grieving for Apple

129 points by mrzool 6y ago

draw_down 6y ago
It is a shame, but with the amount of growth they experienced it was never going to stay the same. I think the real problem is that even with this decline, the competition is still scarce in terms of building nice devices and software. There is a lot of competition along the lines of cheaper, more power, more storage, more customizable. But there’s little pushing them from the outside to make better stuff. Though one exception would be cameras, and Apple is responding accordingly. They have competitors with great cameras so they make great cameras. And on the inside they’re apparently just locked into the yearly update cycle. That might be the only way to keep such a huge train from derailing.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
wedgeantilles 6y ago
Buy something else then.
- 0xDEEPFAC 6y ago
  He is going to, as he says at the bottom of the article, and he has bought 2015 refurbished models to avoid the headaches.... lol?
thebiglebrewski 6y ago
Amen
stevencorona 6y ago
I recently (3 weeks ago) switched from OS X to Ubuntu 20.04 after a decade of using macs as my primary desktop for software development. I hadn't used desktop linux in about 15 years and I have to say I was pleasantly surprised. Everything that I remembered being difficult was straightforward. My AMD graphics card worked out of the box with dual monitors. Bluetooth, wifi, HiDPI (two 5K displays), USB plug and play, volume buttons on my keyboard, all seamless. There are still a few quirks here and there (mainly HiDPI in some apps like Spotify, which there are workarounds for), but I'm happy with my setup and don't plan on moving back. With Firefox, VS Code, Slack, Spotify, and 1Password X all being cross-platform my workflow didn't even change.
- acidburnNSA 6y ago
  Add to that excitement the new System 76 Lemur Pro 14" 2.2 lbs laptop with 40 GB of RAM and a massive 73 Wh battery and you're really going to be excited [1]. I got one recently (moving up from an old Sony Vaio). I've been daily driver on linux for about a decade now and have to agree that it's awesome now. [1] https://system76.com/laptops/lemur https://system76.com/laptops/lemur
  - jjice 6y ago
    The price scared me at first, but I had to remember the cost of the new MBP. Very impressive for the cost, and the 2.2 lb weight is really great, especially for a 14". If I was looking for a laptop to serve as my main machine, I could see this being a really strong competitor. Seems like a great machine, as long as you're a Linux user.
    - pfranz 6y ago
      When I was comparing Mac laptops to PC alternatives they usually ended up within a few hundred dollars. Sure, saving a few hundred dollars is nice, but I'm fairly confident I can sell the Mac in a handful of years for a decent price, confident I'll use it for a handful of years, I'm familiar with the build quality and avenues for parts and replacements, and things like trackpad, biometrics/fingerprint, and battery life are a known quantity for me on a Mac. Saving only 10-15% made it less appealing to make the jump--conversely, I can see people not wanting to pay an extra 10-15% to jump to a Mac.
  - lioeters 6y ago
    I've been eyeing that machine, System76 Lemur, for a while now. In fact a "custom build" is sitting in the shopping cart, waiting for the confirm. It looks like what Macbook Pro should have been in 2020. Open-source OS and applications, well-designed UX, powerful and extensible hardware.
    - acidburnNSA 6y ago
      I ordered one in pre-sale and love it. It had a slight keyboard problem but I found the github issue in the open source firmware, cherrypicked the fix before it was released, flashed it, and it was great. They released it a week later. Pretty awesome experience.
hbrown92 6y ago
I couldn’t agree more, I wish a new innovative platform would emerge. Apple is too comfortable and their products just aren’t worth it anymore.
- linguae 6y ago
  My dream platform would be essentially a revival of OpenDoc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFJdjk2rq4E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFJdjk2rq4E), except it's built on top of the Common Lisp Object System, a dynamic object system that supports multiple dispatch. Users can integrate components either programmatically (like Unix pipes but with even more flexibility) or through a GUI interface. GUI programs would be written in such a way where its UX is highly flexible. The desktop environment should be fully themable, and GUI programs written for this environment must comply with these themes. This themability allows users to choose how they want their desktop environment to look. If they like Material Design, they can use a desktop that adheres to those standards. If they like classic UIs like those from the classic Mac OS or Windows 95, then can choose those options and the programs would fit those standards. They can use themes that have entirely different design standards. The goals of my dream platform would be composability and flexibility, the complete opposite of monolithic applications and opinionated UI/UX design. This would run on Linux/BSD and would be implemented in Common Lisp, though there will need to be some ways to allow programs written in other languages to access CLOS objects since developers should be able to code in the languages of their choice.
save_ferris 6y ago
I completely agree with all of this. From the costly obsession with creating an ever-thinner MBP at the expense of usability, to the demonstrably hostile removal of Target Display Mode in the iMac and beyond, it’s pretty clear Apple stopped designing their “pro” products for their pro users some time ago. They’ve gotten way too comfy with their position in the personal computing space and I too am regularly looking at the alternatives. If the last 5 years are any indication of how the rumored ARM migration is going to be, then we’re in for a really rough ride.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  From the costly obsession with creating an ever-thinner MBP at the expense of usability The latest MacBook Pro is thicker than its predecessor.
vessenes 6y ago
I'm sure there's a word coined for these 'death of Apple' posts. It is true that my 2020 Macbook Pro 16 is not as much better than the competition as my 2011 Macbook Air was. But it is still definitely the best laptop I've ever owned. I keep my laptops, and I can reach for whichever one I want: 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2018 in Air, 13", 15" and now 16" form factors, and I choose the 2020. I also daily reject a number of windows and Chromebook pieces of hardware in favor of the MBP16. When I don't choose it, I most often choose my iPad pro at times or my iPhone. A thorough and hard ecosystem-level look at realistic competitors just doesn't turn up anything that even comes close in terms of just "working". Probably the closest would be an XPS developer running Ubuntu, but that is a completely different experience than the 'it just works' world I get to live in with my Macbook. And, by "it just works", I include a decent package manager with homebrew, a very solid neovim or spacemacs development environment, a fully working highdpi environment without 'quirks', ... the list goes on. And, Windows has no Unix underneath it plus it contains ads in the start menu. For me, it's just not a serious option for real work. In all, I'd say that most people agree with me; the market seems to prefer this hardware.
- troughway 6y ago
  >Windows has no Unix underneath it plus it contains ads in the start menu. For me, it's just not a serious option for real work. The start menu can be customized to turn all of that off. If you want to pin your own things to it, you can. WSL2 is going to drop soon. Looks like a good move by Microsoft. What kind of work do you do exactly that disqualifies Windows from being a "serious option for real work"?
  - jolux 6y ago
    It has telemetry that you can’t turn off without hacking the registry. And I use macOS because I don’t have to tell the OS to get its bullshit ads out of the main menu, because that’s not even a supported feature.
    - nailer 6y ago
      The parent was talking about ads, which are obviously completely different than telemetry. But here's Apple's telemetry policy: https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ See 'Collection and Use of Non-Personal Information'
anorphirith 6y ago
I went through the same cycle or frustration from apple products, I've bought 6 laptops in the past year trying out all of the competition. The truth is, all of the alternatives, as frustrating as apple products can be, are just not as good. And that's by a very very long shot. However fucked apple products are, the competition is FAR behind. So I just swallow it and keep biting the bullet. That only applies if you want a LAPTOP, if you can live in with something fixed to a desk, there's plenty of viable better alternatives out there.
- m0xte 6y ago
  I disagree. I got rid of a 2013 MBP and a 2019 MBA and went back to a thinkpad T470 running Windows 10. 300% less of a pain in the ass. Keyboard works reliably and isn’t horrible, doesn’t get ridiculously hot, actually has enough USB holes, can actually drive it from the keyboard without tying my fingers in knots, battery lasts longer, less fighting against the OS, less bugs (that one hurt to write) and it doesn’t give me a rash that bleeds on my wrists. CPU, memory, storage is about the same as a high end MBA. Display is 1080p so runs at 125% scale which is pretty good. If I break it I just get another one off eBay in 48h turnaround for less than the price of just a new screen for the MBA. Oh and it docks too and I get triple head displays...
  - anorphirith 6y ago
    I tried a Thinkpad X1C7 for a couple months, it's an amazing machine but as long as they don't fix their awful, life sucking synaptics trackpads and poor linux integration (mostly battery management). I consider it unusable.
  - fmajid 6y ago
    LG Gram 17. 20% better single-thread performance than the MBP16 at half the price, and much lighter to boot. https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/2261388?baseline=1768991 https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/2261388?baselin... Sure, the keyboard is not as good as a Thinkpad, but still way better than the disgrace in the 16” MBP (just because it’s not an abomination like the butterfly keyboard doesn’t mean it is any good, anyone who says otherwise is suffering from Stockholm syndrome).
monadic2 6y ago
It's profit-driven software, dummy.
- cosmotic 6y ago
  Apple seems to be driving their software toward what they think the consumer wants (and maybe even what the consumer says they want, or even choses to buy because of), instead of what the customer actually needs. Yes, the customer might feel enamored with what's being sold, but they could have been even more enamored had Apple focused properly.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Well, if it wasn’t what the consumer wants, then why are consumers still buying their products at a premium? Maybe it’s just not what a few outspoken geeks want.
    - monadic2 6y ago
      Customers do buy what they want relative to other products in the market, but absolute satisfaction could still be broadly low across the board. The incentive to fix commonly complained about problems is tied entirely to the speed to which their competitors respond—shared incentives prevent the market from improving as a whole through competition. This is especially true in markets where the capital investment required for entry is in the billions of dollars, like smartphones, operating systems, vehicles and other patented infrastructure (looking at you, john deere). Overall the claim should be that “customers buy what they want from available products”, so that the one can not claim the converse, that a customer is necessarily satisfied with the products they purchase.
stanislavb 6y ago
OK, let's craft a way out.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Helloworldboy 6y ago
Man, can we go one day without a thread complaining about Apple. I get it, all you guys are switching to Linux ok ok ok ok ok, let’s get some interesting threads.
supernova87a 6y ago
If the touch bar (which I agree is useless, or worse, actively counterproductive) is the worst thing he's annoyed by, then Apple is doing pretty well for a computer manufacturer selling 20M units annually, don't you think? I think we have to have some self-realization that the gripes that appear here generally are so specialized (the MacOS Catalina notarization problem just today) that if you sit here you think the world is coming to an end. Yet millions of people purchase and seem to get along just fine with buying what Apple is offering. Now, admittedly, one of the great selling points of Apple Mac is that its power features are (were) designed exactly for developers and professionals to be easy and high-performing, so they need to pay attention to it. But they generally do, don't they? The notarization problem above, let's revisit in 1 month and see if it got some attention? I'm just saying that it's easy for your threshold for what's unacceptable has a tendency to keep on rising, and you get unhappy with smaller and smaller things. It's important to keep a perspective about it. If it is truly horrible what Apple is doing or becoming, well of course you know that Mac / Chrome / your favorite app or hardware were all born out of being unhappy with what someone else built, and going out to build something new themselves. Everyone is absolutely free to go and invent the next better thing and displace the old and tired.
- cosmotic 6y ago
  Selling well doesn't always mean doing well or doing good. IT departments for companies that give their staff macs will buy whatever garbage Apple makes available because they have no other option. Same with consumers stuck in the Apple ecosystem. I've been holding out on buying a mac for nearly a decade because they have no compelling products. I'm stuck using a hackintosh workstation and a crappy windows laptop for on the go.
  - supernova87a 6y ago
    Right, as I said, it's up to Apple to make sure that the audience they served as their target market and made them popular, keeps being served properly. Or rightly let them lose market for it. On your last point, maybe you should consider whether being unhappy over some flaws in a product are worth inconveniencing yourself for 10 years. Is it really that bad?
m0zg 6y ago
After 15 years of using Apple exclusively for my "creative" work (music, photo, video), I've switched back to Windows 10 for those needs. Paid work is still 100% Linux (including the laptop I'm typing this on), but I ain't payin' $6K for a workstation, sorry Tim. Especially if I can't use an NVIDIA GPU in it. And HP Z32 4K monitor costs $200 less than the Apple _display stand_.
brokencode 6y ago
If you really believe that a company can churn out nothing but perfect products over and over again without making any mistakes, then maybe you have been drinking too much of Apple’s Kool-Aid. Every top company has good and bad generations of products, and Apple is no different. This type of post complaining about Apple losing its soul and dying has been coming out regularly for at least the decade since I’ve been following Apple, and probably back way farther than that. Something about Apple makes it an irresistible target for this kind of criticism for some reason. Check out the MacRumors forums for examples.. it’s a group of people who track every move Apple makes, yet overwhelmingly complain about every potential flaw. That’s not saying that there aren’t flaws to criticize about Apple’s products, which there certainly are. But the level of vitriol is extreme compared to what I see directed towards most other companies (except video game companies.. gamers are a tough crowd).
- thomascgalvin 6y ago
  I don't think Apple should be held to a "no mistakes" standard, but for the last few years, the trend has been toward less functionality and more user-hostility. Take the drop of 32 bit support. There are now huge swaths of software, software that I paid a lot of money for, that I can no longer use if I buy new Apple hardware or upgrade to the latest MacOS. There are bright spots, too. The new keyboards are much, much better than the butterflies, and the physical escape key is a welcome return. But in general, when Apple announces something new, I'm worried about what they're going to take away from me, not what they're going to start offering.
  - 1over137 6y ago
    >when Apple announces something new, I'm worried about what they're going to take away from me, not what they're going to start offering. So much this. And it used to be the opposite.
    - linguae 6y ago
      I feel the same way about Apple these days, and the fact that Apple is secretive and doesn't provide roadmaps makes it harder for me to feel at ease with Apple. My last straw is Catalina's notarization policies, but my discontentment with Apple started back in 2012 with the introduction of soldered RAM in the MacBook Pro. After a few years of seeing the writing on the wall, I am slowly coming to grips with this and I'm planning to migrate to Linux and FreeBSD by 2022. My 2013 MacBook Air is aging, and that will be the first device to be replaced. I'm slowly reacquainting myself with the flexibility and the large array of choices that the FOSS ecosystem provides. I'm going to miss Keynote, Preview.app, and the Omni Group's software, but in exchange I get an environment where I have more control.
agentdrtran 6y ago
Ah good, I was worried we'd go more than a month without one of these.
_bxg1 6y ago
I don't disagree with the thesis, but I was disappointed to see yet another rehashing of tired power-user nitpicks about MBPro hardware details, some of which have even been phased out already. The opening made me hopeful I was about to read a thoughtful piece about what's changed in Apple's soul, but instead all I got was an unoriginal rant.
zackmorris 6y ago
I just started writing up a big spiel about the constant daily agonies I endure while using my older Apple hardware, but after a half an hour of it, I abandoned it. It would take me a few days to write out the list of grievances that started when the iPhone arrived, and how Apple splitting its attention between desktop and mobile began the long, slow decline, and how it is reminiscent of the old Apple/Macintosh internal wars that almost brought down the company. Basically what it comes down to is that Apple has a trillion dollars, and that's great and everything, but it means that it's the establishment so it can't innovate anymore. The bottom line is now its top priority. For Apple to save its reputation in the eyes of geeks everywhere, it would have to listen to any geek anywhere. It would have to stare at the ground quietly as the grievances are aired, and then have the maturity to grok what it's heard and do something about the problems. I know it has teams of engineers working on this stuff day and night, and even has a great CEO and everything else. But sometimes in spite of all of that stuff, companies flounder. It's just especially tragic when it's this dream company that got countless millions of people interested in tech initially. Seriously, take a break Apple. Put all the grand plans aside for a while and listen. I guess that's it. Sorry this came out kinda harsh, I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Why do you think Apple cares about the “geek”?
  - ken 6y ago
    Because they write the software that runs on Apple's computers.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      While the geeks write the software, the corporations write the software consumers use. The geeks will write whatever software their corporate overlords tell them to write. The corporations follow the money. Especially with most revenue in mobile apps coming from iOS, I doubt there will be a shortage of developers willing to target it.
plerpin 6y ago
I had a similarly emotional schisms with Apple, but back in 1997. I finally became aware of Apple's penchant for designing "road apples" to fuck cost-conscious consumers. I worked hard as a teen to buy my 62XX Performa, but later when I found out that it was a piece of shit because Apple deliberately designed it as a piece of shit... well, fuck them, really. No respect for their buyers. I switched to Windows in 1998 and didn't look back. https://lowendmac.com/2014/road-apples-second-class-macs/ https://lowendmac.com/2014/road-apples-second-class-macs/
- scarface74 6y ago
  Apple has never catered to “cost conscience” computers. Even back in the early 80s the 8 bit Apple //e’s were more expensive than competitors. T
theonemind 6y ago
Hmm. The way I see it, Apple still seems to have the same basic attitude of high-value of aesthetics over function and a "my-way-or-the-highway" attitude, backed by just a bit less creativity in innovating actual function. It doesn't seem that much different, but a little less satisfying, ultimately.
brandonmenc 6y ago
> I bought a refurbished mid-2015 model which I love. From a utility perspective, it’s the best laptop they’ve ever made, with a bunch of stuff that you’d reasonably expect to find on a "pro" Apple laptop: namely, 8 ports/slots Only two of which are actual USB ports. I'd still have to carry around a hub to use it with my mobile music production setup.
fmajid 6y ago
Pretty much how I feel, except I have less sadness and more anger. I haven’t bought a Mac laptop since 2015, and I bought 4 PC ones to test my migration path to Linux, even if it proceeds glacially due to having other things to do, and in any case 15 years of workflow takes a while to switch.
topkai22 6y ago
Apple is a phone company that has a side business in personal computers. This is good for Apple, because the personal computer business as a whole has been pretty stagnant for a long time. The article would have been much improved by at least making a nod to the fact that their beloved computer make was now in fact primarily making other devices
8bitsrule 6y ago
The Apple I cared about died when the Macintosh arrived. Or was it when the rainbow logo was replaced by chrome? Or was it when they abandoned Hypercard? Or when I had to spend hours researching how to tweak the serial port to do 31250 bps I/O MIDI? Or when the serial ports disappeared and my n x $1000 of serial-port hardware meant I should buy a new Mac. By the time it released mobile phones with hard-wired batteries, the good Apple was a distant memory. Borged.
turtlebits 6y ago
I thought everyone knew that you waited at least a year on Apple hardware and software. I'm still on 10.14 and have no problems with it. That said, I don't get the hate on number of ports. USB type-C is a godsend - single cable to my monitor which provides power and USB hub. I'm probably also in the minority on this one- I just got a new 16" Macbook Pro work laptop, and I much prefer the keyboard on my 2018 15". The esc/touch ID now being buttons are great. The speakers are amazing.
purplezooey 6y ago
Apple is not alone in making janky laptops since 2015. Most of them are junk. They all get too hot, have too much brittle plastic, and low rez displays unless you want to pay a high premium. I've been liking the Chuwi laptops for $200. At least if you get a cheap laptop, pay a cheap price.
D13Fd 6y ago
I disagree. On ports, 4 is enough. At home and at work, I use standard Thunderbolt docking stations, so ports on the laptop are irrelevant. When traveling, I typically use at most 2 HDDs, so 4 ports is plenty. I’d honestly rather have the battery life than the ports. On the keyboard, they’ve fixed it in the new laptops. I agree it was awful for a long stretch there. On the annoying prompts, they are there for security, and I think they made the right call generally. Everyone thinks security is so annoying, right up until they get rooted. On the Touch Bar, I think they missed the mark, but I appreciate the fact that they are innovating. And in the end it’s an OK replacement for the function keys (now that there is a physical escape key). On the OS phoning out before running executables etc, I agree that it sounds like a poor implementation overall. That said, I’ve never noticed any delays from it in my 2016 MBP. All that said, I always think it’s a good idea to try new things, and there is no harm in switching brands/OS’s/etc. As others noted, so much software is cross platform these days that switching is much less of a commitment than it used to be.
ncmncm 6y ago
Mention of Stockholm Syndrome, in the article, is the key. Current customers are self-selected as willing to endure any degree of degradation, provided it is arrived at via sufficiently small steps. Apple is fully equipped and enabled to provide well-above-average quality products and admirable service by the high premium they charge, but instead they pocket the difference, every time. Customers are left with the dubious benefit of price-signaling, which is increasingly shading into sucker-signaling. I get that, looking only at Microsoft, it is hard to imagine stepping down. But that was never the only alternative.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
kilo_bravo_3 6y ago
>it’s becoming increasingly obvious that the Apple I once loved is moribund If there is anything more pathetic than an adult expressing love for a publicly traded corporate entity regardless of what they make or where they're from or how cool their marketing is, I haven't found it. edit: Never mind-- writing a 1600 word essay about the lover-who-must-file-10Qs who is disappointing you and then publishing it online is definitely more pathetic. Compare and contrast: 1. it's increasingly obvious that the White Rock Beverage Company, Inc. I once loved is moribund (followed by a SIXTEEN HUNDRED WORD ESSAY about how they changed the recipe of Sioux City Root Beer and it sucks now) 2. it's increasingly obvious that the Apple, Inc. I once loved is moribund (followed by a SIXTEEN HUNDRED WORD ESSAY about how their laptops suck now)
d3ntb3ev1l 6y ago
I tried a world without Apple and lasted 2 months. I switched to a top of the line Pixel phone (which is now in a box) and top of the link thinkpad. (Sold it for next to nothing). Overall I am glad we have choices. Everyone should make the ones that work for them. Give Google can’t make a decent android phone or watch after significant acquisitions and investments, building real amazing things that make your life better is hard. I’m glad lots of people still are trying hard.
luord 6y ago
I rarely use the mac that my company issued to me, but I couldn't place my finger on why exactly. It's a general feeling that everything about it is obnoxious and cumbersome. Probably the sum of all the little things (and more) mentioned in this comment. This was curiosly not the case the last time I was issued a mac, which I used pretty much all the time and not just for work; essentially replacing my personal (Linux) device. That was a 2016 model, when this trend had already started, so I guess everything has exacerbated in the three years since.

129 points by mrzool 6y ago

It is a shame, but with the amount of growth they experienced it was never going to stay the same. I think the real problem is that even with this decline, the competition is still scarce in terms of building nice devices and software. There is a lot of competition along the lines of cheaper, more power, more storage, more customizable. But there’s little pushing them from the outside to make better stuff. Though one exception would be cameras, and Apple is responding accordingly. They have competitors with great cameras so they make great cameras. And on the inside they’re apparently just locked into the yearly update cycle. That might be the only way to keep such a huge train from derailing.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

wedgeantilles 6y ago

Buy something else then.

0xDEEPFAC 6y ago
He is going to, as he says at the bottom of the article, and he has bought 2015 refurbished models to avoid the headaches.... lol?

thebiglebrewski 6y ago

Amen

stevencorona 6y ago

I recently (3 weeks ago) switched from OS X to Ubuntu 20.04 after a decade of using macs as my primary desktop for software development. I hadn't used desktop linux in about 15 years and I have to say I was pleasantly surprised. Everything that I remembered being difficult was straightforward. My AMD graphics card worked out of the box with dual monitors. Bluetooth, wifi, HiDPI (two 5K displays), USB plug and play, volume buttons on my keyboard, all seamless. There are still a few quirks here and there (mainly HiDPI in some apps like Spotify, which there are workarounds for), but I'm happy with my setup and don't plan on moving back. With Firefox, VS Code, Slack, Spotify, and 1Password X all being cross-platform my workflow didn't even change.

acidburnNSA 6y ago
Add to that excitement the new System 76 Lemur Pro 14" 2.2 lbs laptop with 40 GB of RAM and a massive 73 Wh battery and you're really going to be excited [1]. I got one recently (moving up from an old Sony Vaio). I've been daily driver on linux for about a decade now and have to agree that it's awesome now. [1] https://system76.com/laptops/lemur https://system76.com/laptops/lemur
- jjice 6y ago
  The price scared me at first, but I had to remember the cost of the new MBP. Very impressive for the cost, and the 2.2 lb weight is really great, especially for a 14". If I was looking for a laptop to serve as my main machine, I could see this being a really strong competitor. Seems like a great machine, as long as you're a Linux user.
  - pfranz 6y ago
    When I was comparing Mac laptops to PC alternatives they usually ended up within a few hundred dollars. Sure, saving a few hundred dollars is nice, but I'm fairly confident I can sell the Mac in a handful of years for a decent price, confident I'll use it for a handful of years, I'm familiar with the build quality and avenues for parts and replacements, and things like trackpad, biometrics/fingerprint, and battery life are a known quantity for me on a Mac. Saving only 10-15% made it less appealing to make the jump--conversely, I can see people not wanting to pay an extra 10-15% to jump to a Mac.
- lioeters 6y ago
  I've been eyeing that machine, System76 Lemur, for a while now. In fact a "custom build" is sitting in the shopping cart, waiting for the confirm. It looks like what Macbook Pro should have been in 2020. Open-source OS and applications, well-designed UX, powerful and extensible hardware.
  - acidburnNSA 6y ago
    I ordered one in pre-sale and love it. It had a slight keyboard problem but I found the github issue in the open source firmware, cherrypicked the fix before it was released, flashed it, and it was great. They released it a week later. Pretty awesome experience.

hbrown92 6y ago

I couldn’t agree more, I wish a new innovative platform would emerge. Apple is too comfortable and their products just aren’t worth it anymore.

linguae 6y ago
My dream platform would be essentially a revival of OpenDoc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFJdjk2rq4E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFJdjk2rq4E), except it's built on top of the Common Lisp Object System, a dynamic object system that supports multiple dispatch. Users can integrate components either programmatically (like Unix pipes but with even more flexibility) or through a GUI interface. GUI programs would be written in such a way where its UX is highly flexible. The desktop environment should be fully themable, and GUI programs written for this environment must comply with these themes. This themability allows users to choose how they want their desktop environment to look. If they like Material Design, they can use a desktop that adheres to those standards. If they like classic UIs like those from the classic Mac OS or Windows 95, then can choose those options and the programs would fit those standards. They can use themes that have entirely different design standards. The goals of my dream platform would be composability and flexibility, the complete opposite of monolithic applications and opinionated UI/UX design. This would run on Linux/BSD and would be implemented in Common Lisp, though there will need to be some ways to allow programs written in other languages to access CLOS objects since developers should be able to code in the languages of their choice.

save_ferris 6y ago

I completely agree with all of this. From the costly obsession with creating an ever-thinner MBP at the expense of usability, to the demonstrably hostile removal of Target Display Mode in the iMac and beyond, it’s pretty clear Apple stopped designing their “pro” products for their pro users some time ago. They’ve gotten way too comfy with their position in the personal computing space and I too am regularly looking at the alternatives. If the last 5 years are any indication of how the rumored ARM migration is going to be, then we’re in for a really rough ride.

tonyedgecombe 6y ago
From the costly obsession with creating an ever-thinner MBP at the expense of usability The latest MacBook Pro is thicker than its predecessor.

vessenes 6y ago

I'm sure there's a word coined for these 'death of Apple' posts. It is true that my 2020 Macbook Pro 16 is not as much better than the competition as my 2011 Macbook Air was. But it is still definitely the best laptop I've ever owned. I keep my laptops, and I can reach for whichever one I want: 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2018 in Air, 13", 15" and now 16" form factors, and I choose the 2020. I also daily reject a number of windows and Chromebook pieces of hardware in favor of the MBP16. When I don't choose it, I most often choose my iPad pro at times or my iPhone. A thorough and hard ecosystem-level look at realistic competitors just doesn't turn up anything that even comes close in terms of just "working". Probably the closest would be an XPS developer running Ubuntu, but that is a completely different experience than the 'it just works' world I get to live in with my Macbook. And, by "it just works", I include a decent package manager with homebrew, a very solid neovim or spacemacs development environment, a fully working highdpi environment without 'quirks', ... the list goes on. And, Windows has no Unix underneath it plus it contains ads in the start menu. For me, it's just not a serious option for real work. In all, I'd say that most people agree with me; the market seems to prefer this hardware.

troughway 6y ago
>Windows has no Unix underneath it plus it contains ads in the start menu. For me, it's just not a serious option for real work. The start menu can be customized to turn all of that off. If you want to pin your own things to it, you can. WSL2 is going to drop soon. Looks like a good move by Microsoft. What kind of work do you do exactly that disqualifies Windows from being a "serious option for real work"?
- jolux 6y ago
  It has telemetry that you can’t turn off without hacking the registry. And I use macOS because I don’t have to tell the OS to get its bullshit ads out of the main menu, because that’s not even a supported feature.
  - nailer 6y ago
    The parent was talking about ads, which are obviously completely different than telemetry. But here's Apple's telemetry policy: https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ See 'Collection and Use of Non-Personal Information'

anorphirith 6y ago

I went through the same cycle or frustration from apple products, I've bought 6 laptops in the past year trying out all of the competition. The truth is, all of the alternatives, as frustrating as apple products can be, are just not as good. And that's by a very very long shot. However fucked apple products are, the competition is FAR behind. So I just swallow it and keep biting the bullet. That only applies if you want a LAPTOP, if you can live in with something fixed to a desk, there's plenty of viable better alternatives out there.

m0xte 6y ago
I disagree. I got rid of a 2013 MBP and a 2019 MBA and went back to a thinkpad T470 running Windows 10. 300% less of a pain in the ass. Keyboard works reliably and isn’t horrible, doesn’t get ridiculously hot, actually has enough USB holes, can actually drive it from the keyboard without tying my fingers in knots, battery lasts longer, less fighting against the OS, less bugs (that one hurt to write) and it doesn’t give me a rash that bleeds on my wrists. CPU, memory, storage is about the same as a high end MBA. Display is 1080p so runs at 125% scale which is pretty good. If I break it I just get another one off eBay in 48h turnaround for less than the price of just a new screen for the MBA. Oh and it docks too and I get triple head displays...
- anorphirith 6y ago
  I tried a Thinkpad X1C7 for a couple months, it's an amazing machine but as long as they don't fix their awful, life sucking synaptics trackpads and poor linux integration (mostly battery management). I consider it unusable.
- fmajid 6y ago
  LG Gram 17. 20% better single-thread performance than the MBP16 at half the price, and much lighter to boot. https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/2261388?baseline=1768991 https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/2261388?baselin... Sure, the keyboard is not as good as a Thinkpad, but still way better than the disgrace in the 16” MBP (just because it’s not an abomination like the butterfly keyboard doesn’t mean it is any good, anyone who says otherwise is suffering from Stockholm syndrome).

monadic2 6y ago

It's profit-driven software, dummy.

cosmotic 6y ago
Apple seems to be driving their software toward what they think the consumer wants (and maybe even what the consumer says they want, or even choses to buy because of), instead of what the customer actually needs. Yes, the customer might feel enamored with what's being sold, but they could have been even more enamored had Apple focused properly.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Well, if it wasn’t what the consumer wants, then why are consumers still buying their products at a premium? Maybe it’s just not what a few outspoken geeks want.
  - monadic2 6y ago
    Customers do buy what they want relative to other products in the market, but absolute satisfaction could still be broadly low across the board. The incentive to fix commonly complained about problems is tied entirely to the speed to which their competitors respond—shared incentives prevent the market from improving as a whole through competition. This is especially true in markets where the capital investment required for entry is in the billions of dollars, like smartphones, operating systems, vehicles and other patented infrastructure (looking at you, john deere). Overall the claim should be that “customers buy what they want from available products”, so that the one can not claim the converse, that a customer is necessarily satisfied with the products they purchase.

stanislavb 6y ago

OK, let's craft a way out.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Helloworldboy 6y ago

Man, can we go one day without a thread complaining about Apple. I get it, all you guys are switching to Linux ok ok ok ok ok, let’s get some interesting threads.

supernova87a 6y ago

If the touch bar (which I agree is useless, or worse, actively counterproductive) is the worst thing he's annoyed by, then Apple is doing pretty well for a computer manufacturer selling 20M units annually, don't you think? I think we have to have some self-realization that the gripes that appear here generally are so specialized (the MacOS Catalina notarization problem just today) that if you sit here you think the world is coming to an end. Yet millions of people purchase and seem to get along just fine with buying what Apple is offering. Now, admittedly, one of the great selling points of Apple Mac is that its power features are (were) designed exactly for developers and professionals to be easy and high-performing, so they need to pay attention to it. But they generally do, don't they? The notarization problem above, let's revisit in 1 month and see if it got some attention? I'm just saying that it's easy for your threshold for what's unacceptable has a tendency to keep on rising, and you get unhappy with smaller and smaller things. It's important to keep a perspective about it. If it is truly horrible what Apple is doing or becoming, well of course you know that Mac / Chrome / your favorite app or hardware were all born out of being unhappy with what someone else built, and going out to build something new themselves. Everyone is absolutely free to go and invent the next better thing and displace the old and tired.

cosmotic 6y ago
Selling well doesn't always mean doing well or doing good. IT departments for companies that give their staff macs will buy whatever garbage Apple makes available because they have no other option. Same with consumers stuck in the Apple ecosystem. I've been holding out on buying a mac for nearly a decade because they have no compelling products. I'm stuck using a hackintosh workstation and a crappy windows laptop for on the go.
- supernova87a 6y ago
  Right, as I said, it's up to Apple to make sure that the audience they served as their target market and made them popular, keeps being served properly. Or rightly let them lose market for it. On your last point, maybe you should consider whether being unhappy over some flaws in a product are worth inconveniencing yourself for 10 years. Is it really that bad?

m0zg 6y ago

After 15 years of using Apple exclusively for my "creative" work (music, photo, video), I've switched back to Windows 10 for those needs. Paid work is still 100% Linux (including the laptop I'm typing this on), but I ain't payin' $6K for a workstation, sorry Tim. Especially if I can't use an NVIDIA GPU in it. And HP Z32 4K monitor costs $200 less than the Apple _display stand_.

brokencode 6y ago

If you really believe that a company can churn out nothing but perfect products over and over again without making any mistakes, then maybe you have been drinking too much of Apple’s Kool-Aid. Every top company has good and bad generations of products, and Apple is no different. This type of post complaining about Apple losing its soul and dying has been coming out regularly for at least the decade since I’ve been following Apple, and probably back way farther than that. Something about Apple makes it an irresistible target for this kind of criticism for some reason. Check out the MacRumors forums for examples.. it’s a group of people who track every move Apple makes, yet overwhelmingly complain about every potential flaw. That’s not saying that there aren’t flaws to criticize about Apple’s products, which there certainly are. But the level of vitriol is extreme compared to what I see directed towards most other companies (except video game companies.. gamers are a tough crowd).

thomascgalvin 6y ago
I don't think Apple should be held to a "no mistakes" standard, but for the last few years, the trend has been toward less functionality and more user-hostility. Take the drop of 32 bit support. There are now huge swaths of software, software that I paid a lot of money for, that I can no longer use if I buy new Apple hardware or upgrade to the latest MacOS. There are bright spots, too. The new keyboards are much, much better than the butterflies, and the physical escape key is a welcome return. But in general, when Apple announces something new, I'm worried about what they're going to take away from me, not what they're going to start offering.
- 1over137 6y ago
  >when Apple announces something new, I'm worried about what they're going to take away from me, not what they're going to start offering. So much this. And it used to be the opposite.
  - linguae 6y ago
    I feel the same way about Apple these days, and the fact that Apple is secretive and doesn't provide roadmaps makes it harder for me to feel at ease with Apple. My last straw is Catalina's notarization policies, but my discontentment with Apple started back in 2012 with the introduction of soldered RAM in the MacBook Pro. After a few years of seeing the writing on the wall, I am slowly coming to grips with this and I'm planning to migrate to Linux and FreeBSD by 2022. My 2013 MacBook Air is aging, and that will be the first device to be replaced. I'm slowly reacquainting myself with the flexibility and the large array of choices that the FOSS ecosystem provides. I'm going to miss Keynote, Preview.app, and the Omni Group's software, but in exchange I get an environment where I have more control.

agentdrtran 6y ago

Ah good, I was worried we'd go more than a month without one of these.

_bxg1 6y ago

I don't disagree with the thesis, but I was disappointed to see yet another rehashing of tired power-user nitpicks about MBPro hardware details, some of which have even been phased out already. The opening made me hopeful I was about to read a thoughtful piece about what's changed in Apple's soul, but instead all I got was an unoriginal rant.

zackmorris 6y ago

I just started writing up a big spiel about the constant daily agonies I endure while using my older Apple hardware, but after a half an hour of it, I abandoned it. It would take me a few days to write out the list of grievances that started when the iPhone arrived, and how Apple splitting its attention between desktop and mobile began the long, slow decline, and how it is reminiscent of the old Apple/Macintosh internal wars that almost brought down the company. Basically what it comes down to is that Apple has a trillion dollars, and that's great and everything, but it means that it's the establishment so it can't innovate anymore. The bottom line is now its top priority. For Apple to save its reputation in the eyes of geeks everywhere, it would have to listen to any geek anywhere. It would have to stare at the ground quietly as the grievances are aired, and then have the maturity to grok what it's heard and do something about the problems. I know it has teams of engineers working on this stuff day and night, and even has a great CEO and everything else. But sometimes in spite of all of that stuff, companies flounder. It's just especially tragic when it's this dream company that got countless millions of people interested in tech initially. Seriously, take a break Apple. Put all the grand plans aside for a while and listen. I guess that's it. Sorry this came out kinda harsh, I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed.

scarface74 6y ago
Why do you think Apple cares about the “geek”?
- ken 6y ago
  Because they write the software that runs on Apple's computers.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    While the geeks write the software, the corporations write the software consumers use. The geeks will write whatever software their corporate overlords tell them to write. The corporations follow the money. Especially with most revenue in mobile apps coming from iOS, I doubt there will be a shortage of developers willing to target it.

plerpin 6y ago

I had a similarly emotional schisms with Apple, but back in 1997. I finally became aware of Apple's penchant for designing "road apples" to fuck cost-conscious consumers. I worked hard as a teen to buy my 62XX Performa, but later when I found out that it was a piece of shit because Apple deliberately designed it as a piece of shit... well, fuck them, really. No respect for their buyers. I switched to Windows in 1998 and didn't look back. https://lowendmac.com/2014/road-apples-second-class-macs/ https://lowendmac.com/2014/road-apples-second-class-macs/

scarface74 6y ago
Apple has never catered to “cost conscience” computers. Even back in the early 80s the 8 bit Apple //e’s were more expensive than competitors. T

theonemind 6y ago

Hmm. The way I see it, Apple still seems to have the same basic attitude of high-value of aesthetics over function and a "my-way-or-the-highway" attitude, backed by just a bit less creativity in innovating actual function. It doesn't seem that much different, but a little less satisfying, ultimately.

brandonmenc 6y ago

> I bought a refurbished mid-2015 model which I love. From a utility perspective, it’s the best laptop they’ve ever made, with a bunch of stuff that you’d reasonably expect to find on a "pro" Apple laptop: namely, 8 ports/slots Only two of which are actual USB ports. I'd still have to carry around a hub to use it with my mobile music production setup.

fmajid 6y ago

Pretty much how I feel, except I have less sadness and more anger. I haven’t bought a Mac laptop since 2015, and I bought 4 PC ones to test my migration path to Linux, even if it proceeds glacially due to having other things to do, and in any case 15 years of workflow takes a while to switch.

topkai22 6y ago

Apple is a phone company that has a side business in personal computers. This is good for Apple, because the personal computer business as a whole has been pretty stagnant for a long time. The article would have been much improved by at least making a nod to the fact that their beloved computer make was now in fact primarily making other devices

8bitsrule 6y ago

The Apple I cared about died when the Macintosh arrived. Or was it when the rainbow logo was replaced by chrome? Or was it when they abandoned Hypercard? Or when I had to spend hours researching how to tweak the serial port to do 31250 bps I/O MIDI? Or when the serial ports disappeared and my n x $1000 of serial-port hardware meant I should buy a new Mac. By the time it released mobile phones with hard-wired batteries, the good Apple was a distant memory. Borged.

turtlebits 6y ago

I thought everyone knew that you waited at least a year on Apple hardware and software. I'm still on 10.14 and have no problems with it. That said, I don't get the hate on number of ports. USB type-C is a godsend - single cable to my monitor which provides power and USB hub. I'm probably also in the minority on this one- I just got a new 16" Macbook Pro work laptop, and I much prefer the keyboard on my 2018 15". The esc/touch ID now being buttons are great. The speakers are amazing.

purplezooey 6y ago

Apple is not alone in making janky laptops since 2015. Most of them are junk. They all get too hot, have too much brittle plastic, and low rez displays unless you want to pay a high premium. I've been liking the Chuwi laptops for $200. At least if you get a cheap laptop, pay a cheap price.

D13Fd 6y ago

I disagree. On ports, 4 is enough. At home and at work, I use standard Thunderbolt docking stations, so ports on the laptop are irrelevant. When traveling, I typically use at most 2 HDDs, so 4 ports is plenty. I’d honestly rather have the battery life than the ports. On the keyboard, they’ve fixed it in the new laptops. I agree it was awful for a long stretch there. On the annoying prompts, they are there for security, and I think they made the right call generally. Everyone thinks security is so annoying, right up until they get rooted. On the Touch Bar, I think they missed the mark, but I appreciate the fact that they are innovating. And in the end it’s an OK replacement for the function keys (now that there is a physical escape key). On the OS phoning out before running executables etc, I agree that it sounds like a poor implementation overall. That said, I’ve never noticed any delays from it in my 2016 MBP. All that said, I always think it’s a good idea to try new things, and there is no harm in switching brands/OS’s/etc. As others noted, so much software is cross platform these days that switching is much less of a commitment than it used to be.

ncmncm 6y ago

Mention of Stockholm Syndrome, in the article, is the key. Current customers are self-selected as willing to endure any degree of degradation, provided it is arrived at via sufficiently small steps. Apple is fully equipped and enabled to provide well-above-average quality products and admirable service by the high premium they charge, but instead they pocket the difference, every time. Customers are left with the dubious benefit of price-signaling, which is increasingly shading into sucker-signaling. I get that, looking only at Microsoft, it is hard to imagine stepping down. But that was never the only alternative.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

kilo_bravo_3 6y ago

>it’s becoming increasingly obvious that the Apple I once loved is moribund If there is anything more pathetic than an adult expressing love for a publicly traded corporate entity regardless of what they make or where they're from or how cool their marketing is, I haven't found it. edit: Never mind-- writing a 1600 word essay about the lover-who-must-file-10Qs who is disappointing you and then publishing it online is definitely more pathetic. Compare and contrast: 1. it's increasingly obvious that the White Rock Beverage Company, Inc. I once loved is moribund (followed by a SIXTEEN HUNDRED WORD ESSAY about how they changed the recipe of Sioux City Root Beer and it sucks now) 2. it's increasingly obvious that the Apple, Inc. I once loved is moribund (followed by a SIXTEEN HUNDRED WORD ESSAY about how their laptops suck now)

d3ntb3ev1l 6y ago

I tried a world without Apple and lasted 2 months. I switched to a top of the line Pixel phone (which is now in a box) and top of the link thinkpad. (Sold it for next to nothing). Overall I am glad we have choices. Everyone should make the ones that work for them. Give Google can’t make a decent android phone or watch after significant acquisitions and investments, building real amazing things that make your life better is hard. I’m glad lots of people still are trying hard.

luord 6y ago

I rarely use the mac that my company issued to me, but I couldn't place my finger on why exactly. It's a general feeling that everything about it is obnoxious and cumbersome. Probably the sum of all the little things (and more) mentioned in this comment. This was curiosly not the case the last time I was issued a mac, which I used pretty much all the time and not just for work; essentially replacing my personal (Linux) device. That was a 2016 model, when this trend had already started, so I guess everything has exacerbated in the three years since.