4 ms·

> 1. Phone storage vs. SD card storage. Why? Because power users like to be able to move their data around as they wish. For the typical "mother," they aren't

> 1. Phone storage vs. SD card storage. Why? Because power users like to be able to move their data around as they wish. For the typical "mother," they aren't filling up the 8GB internal that's included. The 16GB SD card (or larger) is just gravy. > 2. The epic list of applications (ELOP) Not sure what you mean... all apps are installed and available in the app locker? In the market place app list, they are organized by install/update date (I believe that is default). > 3. I have to manually move apps from the ELOP to the home pane where I want them. I think I get it... you don't like customization. > 4. Inconsistent interaction Huh? > 5. If I have the power to run multiple apps, then give me the power to close them. The apps aren't really "running" in the background. This isn't a pc like you're used to. It actually degrades performance and battery life to use task killers. The Android Developer site has a good article on this.

ffumarola 16y ago
Here is the link: http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/fundamentals.html http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/fundamentals.html TL;DR : Android kills tasks on its own based on memory needed. Memory management in linux is different than in windows. Battery and performance drain comes from CPU cycles and not memory used.
ghiculescu 16y ago
> For the typical "mother," they aren't filling up the 8GB internal that's included. My mother (why the quotation marks?) loves recording videos and wouldn't dream of removing them from her phone/SD, even if she imported them to her computer. Filling 8GB is very doable. She'd be thoroughly confused once she did so. Giving power users the option of moving things around is OK, but the phone shouldn't report that it's out of space unless all the storage mechanisms (internal and SD and anything else) are actually full, as opposed to; > Today my phone said I was out of space, but it turns out I have plenty of space, but just not in the right place.
- nuclear_eclipse 16y ago
  The 8GB in his example is internal memory, used only by the phone to store the Android system image and application packages. All user data, including videos, are stored on the SD card, external memory. The vast majority of users will never install enough applications to fill internal memory, hence the OP's point is relatively moot. I assume the author probably bought a dirt cheap Android device that doesn't actually have a decent amount of internal memory; my original G1 for instance only had 512M of internal memory, and installing some big apps or games could quickly fill that up. Modern, powerful Android phones can have 4G or more of internal memory for installed programs, which most users will never have a problem with. Granted, I'm not saying this still isn't confusing, but for most people it should be a non-issue because the only thing they'll care about is filling the SD card.
  - ffumarola 16y ago
    Thanks for clarifying for me! Correct. All of the more recent "power" Android phones even tend to have 8GB internal. I wonder what phone OP was using... I just checked my Droid X: 1 GB (of 16 GB) used on SD card, 2 GB (of 8G B) used on the internal.
    - gallamine 16y ago
      OP here. I got the Optimus V - dirt cheap and only has 256 mb of internal memory. So, obviously this isn't representative of "modern" phones, but I'm not convinced that better hardware is a good solution to a potential design flaw. Case in point, this phone recently went on sale at Best Buy and Target and has been sold out in every store in my city. There's a lot of new Android users that will be dealing with this problem.
      - ffumarola 16y ago
        Wow. I didn't know they made any with that little internal memory. Get the app "app2sd," get a 32gb SD card for ~$30, roll around in the money you saved from not getting a 32GB iPhone. ;p But seriously, that is a flaw to license the OS out to manufacturers without making them abide to some level of minimum spec.
- KrijgDeMeuk 16y ago
  That's why recording video, camera pictures, browser downloads, app cache is being stored on the SD card. Most apps, however, get installed on the internal storage of the phone, which is usually around 1 to 1.5 GB. Sadly, most app developers tend to ignore the SD storage option, and store all their maps, levels, save games etc on the internal phone storage. Whether this is an OS or App design fault is debatable.
  - gallamine 16y ago
    "most app developers tend to ignore the SD storage option, and store all their maps, levels, save games etc on the internal phone storage. " Is there a compelling reason why Google allows developers to make this choice?
- ffumarola 16y ago
  >but do I really expect someone like my mother to understand this and use it? His usage of mother seemed to be an allusion to someone non-technical in nature, not just his mother. Therefore, I "mother" to include the more generic person he was talking about. I think at the end of the day, you're mom is an exception. I consider myself a power user and don't even come close to the 8gb internal and 16gb sd on my phone. Most people now listen to music on the cloud, use apps like qik to post movies online, upload pictures right to facebook, etc. Also, I think a lot of my apps save created files (like pictures and movies) to SD by default. Not sure on that. But, one of the reasons most apps write some data to internal is because it has higher security privileges. It's not much of an argument. For some people, the easiness and out of the box nature of the iPhone is preferable. For other people, the customization abilities and expandability of the Android OS is nicer. Every one wins.
ZoFreX 16y ago
On point 5: > If one of the top apps in your app store is a “app killer” application, then I think you have a problem. (Quote from OP) Yes, there is a problem. However in this case it is one of communication and understanding, as there is absolutely no need for a task killer on Android at all. I uninstalled the task killer I was using and haven't looked back, it's never a problem at all. For those who don't know Android's internals that well, when you "tab" away from an application, it is sometimes terminated there and then. Whenever a pane is opened (can't remember the correct terminology) it is given a context object representing its state last time it was viewed. When a pane is closed (i.e. you go to another application), the O/S asks for a context object for it so it can be restored later. It will then be kept asleep in the background, but if the resources it is using are needed by another app, then it will be terminated without warning. That context item is the be-all and end-all, apps cannot rely on being notified by the O/S when they are terminated - only when they are hidden. It's a neat system IMO, optimising for responsiveness when resources are plentiful, and for resource usage when they are not.
- gallamine 16y ago
  Thanks for the clarification. As I commented on the post, years of "training" has taught me (us?) to manage memory manually. The question is, how does Google/Android go about retraining users, or does it not matter?
tdoggette 16y ago
Okay, this is just nonsense. I'm a power user, more or less, and I have an HTC Incredible that I've been using for a few months. Here's my take: 1: When I plug in my phone to my computer, I have to mount two separate drives and then hunt for the file I'm looking for. Where's my music? Is it in "My Documents" or "MP3" on the phone storage? How about "data" or "documents" or "My Music" on the card? The whole thing is a huge mess. Every app has its own little scheme for storing data. 2: Okay, so I hit "install" and now it's installing. I do something else for a minute, and now I want to put it on a page and launch it. Where is it? The app list. Where in the app list? I dunno. What's its name? Is it the same as the one in the market? Not always. Google Reader is "Google Reader" in the market and just "Reader" in the list. 3: No, he doesn't like having to hunt for something, then manually place it before being able to use it easily. Why isn't the option to place an app on a pane given at install? 4: Do you use Android at all? There's no adherence to an interface standard. 5: You're right on this one. Multitasking works great without me having to bother it at all.
- ffumarola 16y ago
  1: It's funny you mention data and documents, the fact that Android even allows you get documents on your phone and then edit them in whatever app of your choice is quite a feat. I have a friend who is a Grad student/TA at a tech school. They all got iPads and he couldn't for the life of him figure out how to edit word documents on the thing. Took him 5 minutes on Android. For music, I use mostly cloud services like Pandora and Slacker, so not too familiar with how the music is stored. 2: You don't know where the app locker is? It's the main button on every home screen. Once you take 5 seconds and figure that out, you will never have that issue again. Not knowing the name is probably a moot problem that happens in a very infrequent cases. Getting it on one of the home screens has the same usability as the iPhone... hold and drag. I prefer to have clean home screens with the 20% of the apps I use 80% of the time. The other 80% are in the locker for the infrequent use. 3: Not sure, is that really the issue? Sure it would be nice, I agree. But to discount an OS cause you have to drag an app onto a home screen of your choice? 4: I have used Android (Droid X) for about 8 months now. I'm not consistently switching phones, so I learned my phone in a day and I was set. When I use a friends phone like a Galaxy or an Incredible, the main points of the interface are the same. Sure there may be a few different buttons here and there.. but it doesn't take more than a minute to figure out what they do. 5: It's a different line of thinking, for sure. Like I mentioned once, its a moot argument. You don't like Android? Fine, get an iPhone. Some of us like the customizability of the OS. I like that different phone manufacturers have slightly different concepts of what makes the OS the most functional. Because at the end of the day each iteration will better future phone models as they learn what the market likes more. Instead of what one companies design team likes better.
estel 16y ago
With respect to 1, 8GB is exceptionally generous for "internal" storage. Most phones, especially towards the low end, might not exceed 1GB or even 512MB. Even phones with a large internal storage (say, the Nexus S) will only have a small amount partitioned for Android's "internal" storage. Of my 16GB internal storage, 15GB is treated as being an external SD card and 1GB as internal storage.

ffumarola 16y ago

Here is the link: http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/fundamentals.html http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/fundamentals.html TL;DR : Android kills tasks on its own based on memory needed. Memory management in linux is different than in windows. Battery and performance drain comes from CPU cycles and not memory used.

ghiculescu 16y ago

> For the typical "mother," they aren't filling up the 8GB internal that's included. My mother (why the quotation marks?) loves recording videos and wouldn't dream of removing them from her phone/SD, even if she imported them to her computer. Filling 8GB is very doable. She'd be thoroughly confused once she did so. Giving power users the option of moving things around is OK, but the phone shouldn't report that it's out of space unless all the storage mechanisms (internal and SD and anything else) are actually full, as opposed to; > Today my phone said I was out of space, but it turns out I have plenty of space, but just not in the right place.

nuclear_eclipse 16y ago
The 8GB in his example is internal memory, used only by the phone to store the Android system image and application packages. All user data, including videos, are stored on the SD card, external memory. The vast majority of users will never install enough applications to fill internal memory, hence the OP's point is relatively moot. I assume the author probably bought a dirt cheap Android device that doesn't actually have a decent amount of internal memory; my original G1 for instance only had 512M of internal memory, and installing some big apps or games could quickly fill that up. Modern, powerful Android phones can have 4G or more of internal memory for installed programs, which most users will never have a problem with. Granted, I'm not saying this still isn't confusing, but for most people it should be a non-issue because the only thing they'll care about is filling the SD card.
- ffumarola 16y ago
  Thanks for clarifying for me! Correct. All of the more recent "power" Android phones even tend to have 8GB internal. I wonder what phone OP was using... I just checked my Droid X: 1 GB (of 16 GB) used on SD card, 2 GB (of 8G B) used on the internal.
  - gallamine 16y ago
    OP here. I got the Optimus V - dirt cheap and only has 256 mb of internal memory. So, obviously this isn't representative of "modern" phones, but I'm not convinced that better hardware is a good solution to a potential design flaw. Case in point, this phone recently went on sale at Best Buy and Target and has been sold out in every store in my city. There's a lot of new Android users that will be dealing with this problem.
    - ffumarola 16y ago
      Wow. I didn't know they made any with that little internal memory. Get the app "app2sd," get a 32gb SD card for ~$30, roll around in the money you saved from not getting a 32GB iPhone. ;p But seriously, that is a flaw to license the OS out to manufacturers without making them abide to some level of minimum spec.
KrijgDeMeuk 16y ago
That's why recording video, camera pictures, browser downloads, app cache is being stored on the SD card. Most apps, however, get installed on the internal storage of the phone, which is usually around 1 to 1.5 GB. Sadly, most app developers tend to ignore the SD storage option, and store all their maps, levels, save games etc on the internal phone storage. Whether this is an OS or App design fault is debatable.
- gallamine 16y ago
  "most app developers tend to ignore the SD storage option, and store all their maps, levels, save games etc on the internal phone storage. " Is there a compelling reason why Google allows developers to make this choice?
ffumarola 16y ago
>but do I really expect someone like my mother to understand this and use it? His usage of mother seemed to be an allusion to someone non-technical in nature, not just his mother. Therefore, I "mother" to include the more generic person he was talking about. I think at the end of the day, you're mom is an exception. I consider myself a power user and don't even come close to the 8gb internal and 16gb sd on my phone. Most people now listen to music on the cloud, use apps like qik to post movies online, upload pictures right to facebook, etc. Also, I think a lot of my apps save created files (like pictures and movies) to SD by default. Not sure on that. But, one of the reasons most apps write some data to internal is because it has higher security privileges. It's not much of an argument. For some people, the easiness and out of the box nature of the iPhone is preferable. For other people, the customization abilities and expandability of the Android OS is nicer. Every one wins.

ZoFreX 16y ago

On point 5: > If one of the top apps in your app store is a “app killer” application, then I think you have a problem. (Quote from OP) Yes, there is a problem. However in this case it is one of communication and understanding, as there is absolutely no need for a task killer on Android at all. I uninstalled the task killer I was using and haven't looked back, it's never a problem at all. For those who don't know Android's internals that well, when you "tab" away from an application, it is sometimes terminated there and then. Whenever a pane is opened (can't remember the correct terminology) it is given a context object representing its state last time it was viewed. When a pane is closed (i.e. you go to another application), the O/S asks for a context object for it so it can be restored later. It will then be kept asleep in the background, but if the resources it is using are needed by another app, then it will be terminated without warning. That context item is the be-all and end-all, apps cannot rely on being notified by the O/S when they are terminated - only when they are hidden. It's a neat system IMO, optimising for responsiveness when resources are plentiful, and for resource usage when they are not.

gallamine 16y ago
Thanks for the clarification. As I commented on the post, years of "training" has taught me (us?) to manage memory manually. The question is, how does Google/Android go about retraining users, or does it not matter?

tdoggette 16y ago

Okay, this is just nonsense. I'm a power user, more or less, and I have an HTC Incredible that I've been using for a few months. Here's my take: 1: When I plug in my phone to my computer, I have to mount two separate drives and then hunt for the file I'm looking for. Where's my music? Is it in "My Documents" or "MP3" on the phone storage? How about "data" or "documents" or "My Music" on the card? The whole thing is a huge mess. Every app has its own little scheme for storing data. 2: Okay, so I hit "install" and now it's installing. I do something else for a minute, and now I want to put it on a page and launch it. Where is it? The app list. Where in the app list? I dunno. What's its name? Is it the same as the one in the market? Not always. Google Reader is "Google Reader" in the market and just "Reader" in the list. 3: No, he doesn't like having to hunt for something, then manually place it before being able to use it easily. Why isn't the option to place an app on a pane given at install? 4: Do you use Android at all? There's no adherence to an interface standard. 5: You're right on this one. Multitasking works great without me having to bother it at all.

ffumarola 16y ago
1: It's funny you mention data and documents, the fact that Android even allows you get documents on your phone and then edit them in whatever app of your choice is quite a feat. I have a friend who is a Grad student/TA at a tech school. They all got iPads and he couldn't for the life of him figure out how to edit word documents on the thing. Took him 5 minutes on Android. For music, I use mostly cloud services like Pandora and Slacker, so not too familiar with how the music is stored. 2: You don't know where the app locker is? It's the main button on every home screen. Once you take 5 seconds and figure that out, you will never have that issue again. Not knowing the name is probably a moot problem that happens in a very infrequent cases. Getting it on one of the home screens has the same usability as the iPhone... hold and drag. I prefer to have clean home screens with the 20% of the apps I use 80% of the time. The other 80% are in the locker for the infrequent use. 3: Not sure, is that really the issue? Sure it would be nice, I agree. But to discount an OS cause you have to drag an app onto a home screen of your choice? 4: I have used Android (Droid X) for about 8 months now. I'm not consistently switching phones, so I learned my phone in a day and I was set. When I use a friends phone like a Galaxy or an Incredible, the main points of the interface are the same. Sure there may be a few different buttons here and there.. but it doesn't take more than a minute to figure out what they do. 5: It's a different line of thinking, for sure. Like I mentioned once, its a moot argument. You don't like Android? Fine, get an iPhone. Some of us like the customizability of the OS. I like that different phone manufacturers have slightly different concepts of what makes the OS the most functional. Because at the end of the day each iteration will better future phone models as they learn what the market likes more. Instead of what one companies design team likes better.

estel 16y ago

With respect to 1, 8GB is exceptionally generous for "internal" storage. Most phones, especially towards the low end, might not exceed 1GB or even 512MB. Even phones with a large internal storage (say, the Nexus S) will only have a small amount partitioned for Android's "internal" storage. Of my 16GB internal storage, 15GB is treated as being an external SD card and 1GB as internal storage.