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I wonder if China is sneaking these changes in during COVID because the pandemic has everyone else distracted. Either way, it’s terribly sad. I love HK and Chin

by ttul 6y ago

I wonder if China is sneaking these changes in during COVID because the pandemic has everyone else distracted. Either way, it’s terribly sad. I love HK and China is killing what’s great about the place.

ISL 6y ago
The world is distracted. Even more important, I believe: coronavirus lockdown and demonstrations are antithetical. If people demonstrate, the tools needed for public health can be used to silence the voice of the people. It is a cowardly move to permanently alter governmental fundamentals during a time of crisis.
- griffinkelly 6y ago
  China is capitalizing on this distraction by military shows of force: https://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-military-resumed-drills-as-us-military-deals-with-coronavirus-2020-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-military-resumed-dri...
Vysero 6y ago
This is how Xi thinks. He let those protests go unchecked on purpose. A boa constrictor always let's it's pray relax before it begins crushing it's bones.
- klmadfejno 6y ago
  That's a fun phrase, but I don't think it's any wiser than any opposite phrase like "strike while the iron is hot". Personally I think Xi messed up igniting this thing when he was legally going to get hong kong if he just waited patiently. He lost a lot of face, and now is facing american repercussions for pushing harder on hong kong :/ People like to attribute wisdom to those who have power but, tbh, acquisition of political power is a weak signal on leadership competence
  - Vysero 6y ago
    Perhaps I just find him akin to a snake in the grass. A constrictor doesn't make the conscious decision to give it's pray a false sense of security; it's simply in it's nature.
- griffinkelly 6y ago
  What would it take for Hong Kong to develop into a full out civil war? I wonder if it could even develop that far.
JumpCrisscross 6y ago
I think causation flows the other way. Xi’s regime is facing its first slowdown. Protesters in Hong Kong have morphed from a curiosity to an existential threat to his regime’s power. That changes the relative weight of its national-security threat versus economic value. Given the world’s muted reaction to Beijing’s hard-handed tactics pre-COVID, it’s difficult to imagine they played a significant role here.
- mc32 6y ago
  Well the health related lockdown means they can enact unpopular legislation or make unpopular moves and the opposition is cornered. They can’t protest and risk health, giving authorities a proximate reason to crack down even harder in the name of health... so nice opportune time .
  - 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y ago
    Unfortunately I see a lot of parallels here, such as declassifying a lot of embarrassing information knowing it will get covered up by covid news.
    - mc32 6y ago
      Declassifying government shenanigans isn’t in the same league as crushing a dissent movement knowing they cannot protest.
  - elliekelly 6y ago
    I remember seeing many protesters in Hong Kong with gas masks to protect their identities and themselves from the police counter-protest measures. Is a virus too small to be filtered out by a gas mask?
- godtoldmetodoit 6y ago
  I agree - everyone had been fawning over China and their impressive response to COVID-19. But the CCP is facing a existential threat right now that they may not be ready for. China is not so easy to keep united, there are a ton of varied and potentially conflicting interests. Easy to keep conflict down when the pie is growing for everyone, much more difficult when the economy is falling apart at the seams and the US is beginning to get scared of how big you are getting and starting to close its market to your exports... We'll see how they manage it, based on early returns it is is looking to be ugly. Xi is ramping up the nationalist rhetoric and burning down any soft power they've built up with the West in the process. The violent language towards "rogue provinces" is increasing, they are churning up the populace with anger and hoping it stays channeled externally.
luckylion 6y ago
> I love HK and China is killing what’s great about the place. Massive inequality and the lower class literally living in cages? Okay, that was rude, but I have a feeling that what is driving most of what's great about it (almost unparalleled economic freedom being that driver) leads to that outcome. The vibrant cultural scene etc is a side effect of that inequality and the riches it provides to the upper class.
- ksec 6y ago
  The massive inequality was the outcome of a Government not elected by people and doing absolutely nothing for 15 years with regards to land and housing policy, all while benefiting from the insane housing prices ( Above and Beyond SF and Toronto ) as they are participant and investors in the housing market.
chvid 6y ago
It is not just China. The US has been ramping up things on multiple fronts. For example the Huawei sanctions and its military presence in the South China Sea.
- ciarannolan 6y ago
  Once again, "but America". What in the world does the US being in the South China Sea have to do with the topic at hand: China sending their secret police into Hong Kong to "police" the protest movement (ie. detain and disappear people with impunity). This knee-jerk reaction to complain about America every time China's misdeeds are reported on is growing tiresome.
  - 49531 6y ago
    I think the whataboutisms come up whenever China is mentioned because it feels a bit goofy to spend energy worrying about authoritarianism across the world while ignoring authoritarianism in your own country. I'm not saying people shouldn't worry about both, but if you're wondering why people are saying "but America" I'd guess that is the main reason.
    - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
      I don't think chvid is from America.
      - yorwba 6y ago
        Denmark: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22571624 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22571624
  - chvid 6y ago
    To me it is obvious that those things have a lot to do with each other. By doing this now China is clearly ignoring the explicit warnings from the US as said in direct statements by US political figures, the US' threat to end Hong Kong's special trade status, and the ramped up military presence in the South China Sea. The super powers are clearly aiming for a larger confrontation at this point. If you want context to the particular change, look at neighbouring Macau where apparently it has been law for more than 10 years: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3085725/two-sessions-two-cities-what-can-hong-kong-learn-macaus https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3085725... Two Sessions, two cities: what can Hong Kong learn from Macau’s experience of national security legislation?
balola 6y ago
You don't fear a bad guy, you fear people with nothing to lose, since like everybody is reconsidering their relationship with China now, might as well go even lower while at it.

by ttul 6y ago

ISL 6y ago

The world is distracted. Even more important, I believe: coronavirus lockdown and demonstrations are antithetical. If people demonstrate, the tools needed for public health can be used to silence the voice of the people. It is a cowardly move to permanently alter governmental fundamentals during a time of crisis.

griffinkelly 6y ago
China is capitalizing on this distraction by military shows of force: https://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-military-resumed-drills-as-us-military-deals-with-coronavirus-2020-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-military-resumed-dri...

Vysero 6y ago

This is how Xi thinks. He let those protests go unchecked on purpose. A boa constrictor always let's it's pray relax before it begins crushing it's bones.

klmadfejno 6y ago
That's a fun phrase, but I don't think it's any wiser than any opposite phrase like "strike while the iron is hot". Personally I think Xi messed up igniting this thing when he was legally going to get hong kong if he just waited patiently. He lost a lot of face, and now is facing american repercussions for pushing harder on hong kong :/ People like to attribute wisdom to those who have power but, tbh, acquisition of political power is a weak signal on leadership competence
- Vysero 6y ago
  Perhaps I just find him akin to a snake in the grass. A constrictor doesn't make the conscious decision to give it's pray a false sense of security; it's simply in it's nature.
griffinkelly 6y ago
What would it take for Hong Kong to develop into a full out civil war? I wonder if it could even develop that far.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago

I think causation flows the other way. Xi’s regime is facing its first slowdown. Protesters in Hong Kong have morphed from a curiosity to an existential threat to his regime’s power. That changes the relative weight of its national-security threat versus economic value. Given the world’s muted reaction to Beijing’s hard-handed tactics pre-COVID, it’s difficult to imagine they played a significant role here.

mc32 6y ago
Well the health related lockdown means they can enact unpopular legislation or make unpopular moves and the opposition is cornered. They can’t protest and risk health, giving authorities a proximate reason to crack down even harder in the name of health... so nice opportune time .
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y ago
  Unfortunately I see a lot of parallels here, such as declassifying a lot of embarrassing information knowing it will get covered up by covid news.
  - mc32 6y ago
    Declassifying government shenanigans isn’t in the same league as crushing a dissent movement knowing they cannot protest.
- elliekelly 6y ago
  I remember seeing many protesters in Hong Kong with gas masks to protect their identities and themselves from the police counter-protest measures. Is a virus too small to be filtered out by a gas mask?
godtoldmetodoit 6y ago
I agree - everyone had been fawning over China and their impressive response to COVID-19. But the CCP is facing a existential threat right now that they may not be ready for. China is not so easy to keep united, there are a ton of varied and potentially conflicting interests. Easy to keep conflict down when the pie is growing for everyone, much more difficult when the economy is falling apart at the seams and the US is beginning to get scared of how big you are getting and starting to close its market to your exports... We'll see how they manage it, based on early returns it is is looking to be ugly. Xi is ramping up the nationalist rhetoric and burning down any soft power they've built up with the West in the process. The violent language towards "rogue provinces" is increasing, they are churning up the populace with anger and hoping it stays channeled externally.

luckylion 6y ago

> I love HK and China is killing what’s great about the place. Massive inequality and the lower class literally living in cages? Okay, that was rude, but I have a feeling that what is driving most of what's great about it (almost unparalleled economic freedom being that driver) leads to that outcome. The vibrant cultural scene etc is a side effect of that inequality and the riches it provides to the upper class.

ksec 6y ago
The massive inequality was the outcome of a Government not elected by people and doing absolutely nothing for 15 years with regards to land and housing policy, all while benefiting from the insane housing prices ( Above and Beyond SF and Toronto ) as they are participant and investors in the housing market.

chvid 6y ago

It is not just China. The US has been ramping up things on multiple fronts. For example the Huawei sanctions and its military presence in the South China Sea.

ciarannolan 6y ago
Once again, "but America". What in the world does the US being in the South China Sea have to do with the topic at hand: China sending their secret police into Hong Kong to "police" the protest movement (ie. detain and disappear people with impunity). This knee-jerk reaction to complain about America every time China's misdeeds are reported on is growing tiresome.
- 49531 6y ago
  I think the whataboutisms come up whenever China is mentioned because it feels a bit goofy to spend energy worrying about authoritarianism across the world while ignoring authoritarianism in your own country. I'm not saying people shouldn't worry about both, but if you're wondering why people are saying "but America" I'd guess that is the main reason.
  - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    I don't think chvid is from America.
    - yorwba 6y ago
      Denmark: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22571624 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22571624
- chvid 6y ago
  To me it is obvious that those things have a lot to do with each other. By doing this now China is clearly ignoring the explicit warnings from the US as said in direct statements by US political figures, the US' threat to end Hong Kong's special trade status, and the ramped up military presence in the South China Sea. The super powers are clearly aiming for a larger confrontation at this point. If you want context to the particular change, look at neighbouring Macau where apparently it has been law for more than 10 years: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3085725/two-sessions-two-cities-what-can-hong-kong-learn-macaus https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3085725... Two Sessions, two cities: what can Hong Kong learn from Macau’s experience of national security legislation?

balola 6y ago

You don't fear a bad guy, you fear people with nothing to lose, since like everybody is reconsidering their relationship with China now, might as well go even lower while at it.