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Makes you wonder if all the trials of universal basic income would be viewed differently in light of current events as a model better suited to handle the bumps

by Zenst 6y ago

Makes you wonder if all the trials of universal basic income would be viewed differently in light of current events as a model better suited to handle the bumps in life and with that, overall make things more stable.

ThrowawayR2 6y ago
A global economic collapse and mass unemployment is exactly when the funding models for UBI undergo a catastrophic meltdown. So, we need wonder no more.
- voisin 6y ago
  This response makes no sense. We don’t cancel unemployment, social security, etc in these instances. UBI is meant to replace these programs and by giving everyone a guaranteed income even in bad times, it allows some certainty at the household level which reduces stress and keeps consumption higher to keep the economy from melting down into a depression.
  - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
    Unemployment is pre-funded through unemployment insurance taxes for the working years of the recipient. Social Security is pre-funded through SS taxes for the working years of the recipient. UBI is pre-funded by...? Nothing?
    - Zenst 6y ago
      Well, as UBI would moot unemployment payments and Social security payments, then I'm curious why you would feel that nothing would fund it.
      - ChrisLomont 6y ago
        Those two don't even begin to cover anything near a UBI needs. Do a simple estimate of how you think UBI would work and cost, and be sure that it doesn't screw those already on SS, and post here. Every single place I've seen the math worked out it needs either massive tax increases, screws the needy already on some form of targeted assistance, or is woefully low. And I've never seen one that is "universal." All are merely ways to tax the working to fund the unworking.
        Zenst 6y ago
        > Those two don't even begin to cover anything near a UBI needs. Agreed, but then it's not a black hole as it will be spent, incurring sales taxes, feed into companies, taxation again. So a fair percentage will already feedback. However, the tax system needs fixing before that and many loopholes need closing and the whole system simplified as the current complexes mess just creates loopholes that those with lots of money can and do abuse. So until the whole tax system is sorted, many things will just fail or become another bolt-on kludge and doomed to fail. > be sure that it doesn't screw those already on SS, and post here Not sure how you would discern that, but a rather glib thing to be saying and naive at a time when many will be out of work. Though I'm sure that was not the intention and probably better of with a quote by Margaret Thatcher “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
    - jointpdf 6y ago
      Isn’t one of the key premises of UBI is that ever-increasing will (arguably, has) lead to a massive economic surplus that would then be redistributed via some mechanism(s)?
antisthenes 6y ago
The US population is 320 million, with a current workforce of about 80 million. The 240 million are essentially on a form of basic income right now, whether being support by unemployment insurance, EITC, a working spouse, being a child, or a senior (social security) Actual UBI isn't really that far from the current situation.
- Zenst 6y ago
  Exactly, just removes so much of the bureaucracy and overheads. Though if Americans had a choice of UBI or a National health service - free for all, what would they pick if they could only pick one of those? I reckon they would go for national health service over UBI if it was a binary choice.

by Zenst 6y ago

ThrowawayR2 6y ago

A global economic collapse and mass unemployment is exactly when the funding models for UBI undergo a catastrophic meltdown. So, we need wonder no more.

voisin 6y ago
This response makes no sense. We don’t cancel unemployment, social security, etc in these instances. UBI is meant to replace these programs and by giving everyone a guaranteed income even in bad times, it allows some certainty at the household level which reduces stress and keeps consumption higher to keep the economy from melting down into a depression.
- ThrowawayR2 6y ago
  Unemployment is pre-funded through unemployment insurance taxes for the working years of the recipient. Social Security is pre-funded through SS taxes for the working years of the recipient. UBI is pre-funded by...? Nothing?
  - Zenst 6y ago
    Well, as UBI would moot unemployment payments and Social security payments, then I'm curious why you would feel that nothing would fund it.
    - ChrisLomont 6y ago
      Those two don't even begin to cover anything near a UBI needs. Do a simple estimate of how you think UBI would work and cost, and be sure that it doesn't screw those already on SS, and post here. Every single place I've seen the math worked out it needs either massive tax increases, screws the needy already on some form of targeted assistance, or is woefully low. And I've never seen one that is "universal." All are merely ways to tax the working to fund the unworking.
      - Zenst 6y ago
        > Those two don't even begin to cover anything near a UBI needs. Agreed, but then it's not a black hole as it will be spent, incurring sales taxes, feed into companies, taxation again. So a fair percentage will already feedback. However, the tax system needs fixing before that and many loopholes need closing and the whole system simplified as the current complexes mess just creates loopholes that those with lots of money can and do abuse. So until the whole tax system is sorted, many things will just fail or become another bolt-on kludge and doomed to fail. > be sure that it doesn't screw those already on SS, and post here Not sure how you would discern that, but a rather glib thing to be saying and naive at a time when many will be out of work. Though I'm sure that was not the intention and probably better of with a quote by Margaret Thatcher “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
  - jointpdf 6y ago
    Isn’t one of the key premises of UBI is that ever-increasing will (arguably, has) lead to a massive economic surplus that would then be redistributed via some mechanism(s)?

antisthenes 6y ago

The US population is 320 million, with a current workforce of about 80 million. The 240 million are essentially on a form of basic income right now, whether being support by unemployment insurance, EITC, a working spouse, being a child, or a senior (social security) Actual UBI isn't really that far from the current situation.

Zenst 6y ago
Exactly, just removes so much of the bureaucracy and overheads. Though if Americans had a choice of UBI or a National health service - free for all, what would they pick if they could only pick one of those? I reckon they would go for national health service over UBI if it was a binary choice.