5 ms·

I think the normality of it isn’t the issue. The issue is that many residents of Hong Kong have been explicitly demonstrating that they are not comfortable with

by cmpb 6y ago

I think the normality of it isn’t the issue. The issue is that many residents of Hong Kong have been explicitly demonstrating that they are not comfortable with China having any control in Hong Kong

dragonsh 6y ago
Like California is a state in USA where FBI and national security agencies can operate, Hong Kong is a province of China with some exemptions, and one of the exemptions is changed, where Chinese security agencies can operate on Chinese cities and provinces. I believe this would not have happened if people did not start desecrating the Chinese flag, and on top carry colonial ruler and US flags to protest against China, in their own country. I have yet to see an example in a democratic nation where population can take a flag of another country or a colonial ruler in protest against their own country, and government will seat silently. If people or so much against China, I hope similar disdain should be there for India, which also falls under the same group. India unilaterally without the involvement of people of Kashmir changed the status quo and in the process suppressed them with military force and is ongoing, the suppression is much worse than the freedoms Hong Kong still enjoy compared to Kashmiris and Kashmir. The actions where unilateral decisions are taken should be criticised, but than should act with same fervour for anyone who does it, be it democracy or meritocracy (like China and Singapore system).
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  > Hong Kong is a province of China with some exemptions, and one of the exemptions is changed Which involves Xi’s government breaching an agreement, with the U.K. and Hong Kong people, from 1997. Countries are sovereign. But reputations matter. Any country dealing with Xi would be mad to take his word. The repercussions of these actions in neighbouring countries, such as Taiwan and the Philippines, will be interesting to see unfold.
  - dragonsh 6y ago
    > such as Taiwan... Taiwan is not yet a country based on wishes of its founding father, it’s still one part of China (Chiang Kai Shek‘a body is still waiting for going to China to have a proper burial one day when Taiwan and China is one). I doubt USA will ever help them to be an independent country because than they won’t play a part of being puppet in its bidding to control Asia Pacific, given Taiwan At present is playing a puppet in hands of USA, and with 40% economic downturn it’s just a matter of time they will fight US’s war and suffer the consequences. If you look at the language of the CPC meeting today you will know they have already removed the word peaceful reunification, which is an indication that they have accepted that if push comes to shove they need to fight USA through Taiwan (which will be very unfortunate in my view as they should determine their own course, independent of USA).
- Johnjonjoan 6y ago
  I've seen multiple American protests with the Russian flag. If we include flags of historic Nations I've also seen the swastika and Soviet Union flag. This along with desecration of the countries own flag at protests happens in most Western Nations. It's called freedom of expression.
  - dragonsh 6y ago
    Please try in the largest democracy India and many other commonwealth democracy with common law jurisdiction. It’s an offence and that too criminal and many of those nations will invoke British colonial era, sedition laws to punish, torture protestors. If USA or for that matter any country condemn China, they should do the same condemnation and restrictions on other country with same fervour, don’t have dual standards. What I see here is the same Cold War, not a reasonable or justifiable action. I do understand the definition of freedom of expression as defined in many constitutions and also in common law jurisdiction, which I understand better than continental law jurisdiction followed by Germany, Japan and China.
    - Johnjonjoan 6y ago
      You admit you were wrong when you said you couldn't do it in any of the democracies in your now flagged comment then? Because all I see is goalposts moving.
    - reissbaker 6y ago
      > I have yet to see an example in a democratic nation where population can take a flag of another country or a colonial ruler in protest against their own country This was your assertion, word for word. You were given an obvious counterexample, and now you're deflecting to claim you only meant India? Here's another example: in New Zealand, burning the flag was most recently punished by... An NZ$500 fine. Nothing like what you're claiming. How about the UK? In 2011, 20-30 students publicly burned a large British flag. They got a verbal warning. Waving American flags is legal. How about Northern Ireland? Burning the flag is literally legal. Waving American flags: also legal. How about Japan? Once again, burning the Japanese flag is legal. Waving American flags: also legal. And as you know, the USA legally allows flag-burning as well, and waving whatever flag you want. > torture protestors Do you have any links/data regarding modern events to back up your extraordinary claims? > If USA or for that matter any country condemn China, they should do the same condemnation and restrictions on other country with same fervour Classic whataboutism.
- bluerobotcat 6y ago
  The actions of India in Kashmir have certainly been strongly condemned as well. What happens there is terrible. Perhaps the Kashmir situation got less media attention than Hong Kong, but I think that's more of a result of more developed regions getting more global news attention in general. It's the same reason that the Uyghur situation doesn't get as much media attention as Hong Kong either. Comparing HK to California seems intellectual dishonest. The history is not comparable at all. The very existence of the notion 'One Country Two Systems' should tell you that the Hong Kong situation is quite special. As for 'desecrating the Chinese flag'. You can also see that as a hint that people are really angry. I don't understand at all how oppression is a sensible answer to that.
- jjkkk 6y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpSMtoBt3Qk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpSMtoBt3Qk
- peisistratos 6y ago
  Hong Kong was broken off of China so that the British could push heroin opium on Chinamen. It's a laugh that westerners think they still have some colonial claim at what goes on in Hong Kong, based on their old drug pushing operation.
  - almost_usual 6y ago
    Well 156 years of ruling a place will change its culture. That is a long time, PRC won’t have ruled Hong Kong for that long until 2153 if you begin at 1997. Unless newborns start living into their 130s no one alive today will witness it. You can’t “fast-forward” and erase 156 years in a few decades.
    - mytailorisrich 6y ago
      Portugal ruled Macao for 400 years (interestingly Macao does not seem to face any unrest, btw). The British were in India for close to 400 years as well. This is not evidence of anything and I think this is quite irrelevant here. The main issue is not the length of the British "occupation", it is the Chinese political division that has existed since the Civil War. Many in HK (like in Taiwan) fled the communists and the others moved there during "old China" times. The issue is opposition to communist forces.
- ailun 6y ago
  > I believe this would not have happened if people did not start desecrating the Chinese flag, and on top carry colonial ruler and US flags to protest against China, in their own country. I have yet to see an example in a democratic nation where population can take a flag of another country or a colonial ruler in protest against their own country, and government will seat silently. People burn American flags in US protests. It’s constitutionally protected speech. So are all those other things. If those things were illegal under Hong Kong law, the perpetrators can be prosecuted under their laws. China is once again going back on its promise to let Hong Kong have self-rule for 50 years. Your defense that other countries do it, or that the protesters did some bad things doesn’t mean much.

by cmpb 6y ago

dragonsh 6y ago

Like California is a state in USA where FBI and national security agencies can operate, Hong Kong is a province of China with some exemptions, and one of the exemptions is changed, where Chinese security agencies can operate on Chinese cities and provinces. I believe this would not have happened if people did not start desecrating the Chinese flag, and on top carry colonial ruler and US flags to protest against China, in their own country. I have yet to see an example in a democratic nation where population can take a flag of another country or a colonial ruler in protest against their own country, and government will seat silently. If people or so much against China, I hope similar disdain should be there for India, which also falls under the same group. India unilaterally without the involvement of people of Kashmir changed the status quo and in the process suppressed them with military force and is ongoing, the suppression is much worse than the freedoms Hong Kong still enjoy compared to Kashmiris and Kashmir. The actions where unilateral decisions are taken should be criticised, but than should act with same fervour for anyone who does it, be it democracy or meritocracy (like China and Singapore system).

JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> Hong Kong is a province of China with some exemptions, and one of the exemptions is changed Which involves Xi’s government breaching an agreement, with the U.K. and Hong Kong people, from 1997. Countries are sovereign. But reputations matter. Any country dealing with Xi would be mad to take his word. The repercussions of these actions in neighbouring countries, such as Taiwan and the Philippines, will be interesting to see unfold.
- dragonsh 6y ago
  > such as Taiwan... Taiwan is not yet a country based on wishes of its founding father, it’s still one part of China (Chiang Kai Shek‘a body is still waiting for going to China to have a proper burial one day when Taiwan and China is one). I doubt USA will ever help them to be an independent country because than they won’t play a part of being puppet in its bidding to control Asia Pacific, given Taiwan At present is playing a puppet in hands of USA, and with 40% economic downturn it’s just a matter of time they will fight US’s war and suffer the consequences. If you look at the language of the CPC meeting today you will know they have already removed the word peaceful reunification, which is an indication that they have accepted that if push comes to shove they need to fight USA through Taiwan (which will be very unfortunate in my view as they should determine their own course, independent of USA).
Johnjonjoan 6y ago
I've seen multiple American protests with the Russian flag. If we include flags of historic Nations I've also seen the swastika and Soviet Union flag. This along with desecration of the countries own flag at protests happens in most Western Nations. It's called freedom of expression.
- dragonsh 6y ago
  Please try in the largest democracy India and many other commonwealth democracy with common law jurisdiction. It’s an offence and that too criminal and many of those nations will invoke British colonial era, sedition laws to punish, torture protestors. If USA or for that matter any country condemn China, they should do the same condemnation and restrictions on other country with same fervour, don’t have dual standards. What I see here is the same Cold War, not a reasonable or justifiable action. I do understand the definition of freedom of expression as defined in many constitutions and also in common law jurisdiction, which I understand better than continental law jurisdiction followed by Germany, Japan and China.
  - Johnjonjoan 6y ago
    You admit you were wrong when you said you couldn't do it in any of the democracies in your now flagged comment then? Because all I see is goalposts moving.
  - reissbaker 6y ago
    > I have yet to see an example in a democratic nation where population can take a flag of another country or a colonial ruler in protest against their own country This was your assertion, word for word. You were given an obvious counterexample, and now you're deflecting to claim you only meant India? Here's another example: in New Zealand, burning the flag was most recently punished by... An NZ$500 fine. Nothing like what you're claiming. How about the UK? In 2011, 20-30 students publicly burned a large British flag. They got a verbal warning. Waving American flags is legal. How about Northern Ireland? Burning the flag is literally legal. Waving American flags: also legal. How about Japan? Once again, burning the Japanese flag is legal. Waving American flags: also legal. And as you know, the USA legally allows flag-burning as well, and waving whatever flag you want. > torture protestors Do you have any links/data regarding modern events to back up your extraordinary claims? > If USA or for that matter any country condemn China, they should do the same condemnation and restrictions on other country with same fervour Classic whataboutism.
bluerobotcat 6y ago
The actions of India in Kashmir have certainly been strongly condemned as well. What happens there is terrible. Perhaps the Kashmir situation got less media attention than Hong Kong, but I think that's more of a result of more developed regions getting more global news attention in general. It's the same reason that the Uyghur situation doesn't get as much media attention as Hong Kong either. Comparing HK to California seems intellectual dishonest. The history is not comparable at all. The very existence of the notion 'One Country Two Systems' should tell you that the Hong Kong situation is quite special. As for 'desecrating the Chinese flag'. You can also see that as a hint that people are really angry. I don't understand at all how oppression is a sensible answer to that.
jjkkk 6y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpSMtoBt3Qk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpSMtoBt3Qk
peisistratos 6y ago
Hong Kong was broken off of China so that the British could push heroin opium on Chinamen. It's a laugh that westerners think they still have some colonial claim at what goes on in Hong Kong, based on their old drug pushing operation.
- almost_usual 6y ago
  Well 156 years of ruling a place will change its culture. That is a long time, PRC won’t have ruled Hong Kong for that long until 2153 if you begin at 1997. Unless newborns start living into their 130s no one alive today will witness it. You can’t “fast-forward” and erase 156 years in a few decades.
  - mytailorisrich 6y ago
    Portugal ruled Macao for 400 years (interestingly Macao does not seem to face any unrest, btw). The British were in India for close to 400 years as well. This is not evidence of anything and I think this is quite irrelevant here. The main issue is not the length of the British "occupation", it is the Chinese political division that has existed since the Civil War. Many in HK (like in Taiwan) fled the communists and the others moved there during "old China" times. The issue is opposition to communist forces.
ailun 6y ago
> I believe this would not have happened if people did not start desecrating the Chinese flag, and on top carry colonial ruler and US flags to protest against China, in their own country. I have yet to see an example in a democratic nation where population can take a flag of another country or a colonial ruler in protest against their own country, and government will seat silently. People burn American flags in US protests. It’s constitutionally protected speech. So are all those other things. If those things were illegal under Hong Kong law, the perpetrators can be prosecuted under their laws. China is once again going back on its promise to let Hong Kong have self-rule for 50 years. Your defense that other countries do it, or that the protesters did some bad things doesn’t mean much.