4 ms·

It's going to be impossible to track, but surely the financial ruin the governments have compelled people to endure is going to kill many, many thousands of peo

It's going to be impossible to track, but surely the financial ruin the governments have compelled people to endure is going to kill many, many thousands of people. It's also not politically advantageous to even consider it, let alone talk about it. In a year, when nobody cares anymore, and people are killing themselves, it will never come back to haunt the policy makers that provoked it all.

TeMPOraL 6y ago
If only many, many thousands of people die due to economic issues, that's still a huge win over what the virus would have done if left to run through the country at full speed. Economic problems would've happened anyway. Global supply chains were already in disarray even before March, as China essentially lost two months of manufacturing output, container ships stopped sailing, and the whole chain was pushed into oscillations it'll take a year or more to recover from (affectionately known as the "bullwhip effect"). Airlines and hotels were done the moment the virus landed in Italy - at this point everyone with half a brain started to cancel any trip they could cancel, weeks before governments in Europe got a clue and started locking down their borders. The only way the government could've saved restaurants, nail salons, et al. from suffering similar fate would be by suppressing all information about the virus and going to full denial mode. Otherwise, the customer base would've mostly evaporated anyway, lockdown or no lockdown, and you'd still have rolling shutdowns as place after place had to be quarantined for 2+ weeks after some employee or customer was found sick. With hotels and restaurants barely surviving on fumes, the pressure on the food supply chain would've been only little worse than it is with these places shut down. Anyway, it's not like the governments around the world started to shut down their countries because they were bored, and wanted to stir things up. They actually dragged their feet for weeks after people following the evolution of the virus started stocking up, limiting interactions, pushing for WFH and practicing social distancing.
- noobaccount 6y ago
  I immediately know two things about you: 1. You don’t live alone. 2. You have a job. I think we’re all a little short on empathy these days.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    Huh. Point taken. Thank you for reminding me. You're correct in both guesses, and I do sometimes forget that I'm not suffering through the worst of it.
    - exmadscientist 6y ago
      And: 3. You and your loved ones are not dealing with mental illnesses that were under control before the lockdown, but losing control during and after it. This thing is really hard on some people. (The above is not intended to castigate you or drag you through the mud. Just a reminder that everyone's a little different.)
      - TeMPOraL 6y ago
        That's a good point too, but honestly, the continued lockdown is getting to us too. Probably not enough to qualify for treatment, but enough to be mindful of our own mental states. But I know many others have it much worse.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - thisiszilff 6y ago
    I struggle to understand how those points are related to the substance of the post you're replying to. The situation OP describes is between bad & worse -- you can have empathy for people while recognizing the reality of the situation. Are you arguing that OP's analysis of the situation is wrong because of a lack of empathy for people affected more severely by pandemic?
  - jointpdf 6y ago
    Awfully quick to judge eh? I agree with everything the parent comment said, and I: 1. Live alone 2. Have not worked for nearly a year now. Technically I’m on leave due to extreme burnout, so I’m even more hosed (can’t collect unemployment). 3. (see below) Have been dealing with a wicked combo of depression/anxiety/ADD/OCD for 20+ years now, but the last 3 or so have been worse. I’ve been extremely isolated for the last year—I’ve spent countless days in bed, not eating my first meal until 11pm. I was just starting to improve in February, trying to get back on my feet and out into the world. My lifelines were the climbing gym (social+exercise time) and libraries/coffee shops. Luckily I (finally) got into a therapist in January, which is still available and co-pay free. Despite all this, I think the lockdowns were a necessary emergency response to the crisis, with one major caveat—we did (and are doing) too little, too late, and too incompetently. It was glaringly obvious back in February that we needed to start taking measured action to mitigate the spread of the virus (as other countries—Taiwan, NZ, SK, etc did). Our response was an abject failure of reason and leadership, and I hope no one ever forgets that. So although I’m pretty thoroughly fucked, I’m adapting and surviving. In many ways, it’s comforting and galvanizing to have a common cause to rally around. My attitude is that this crisis could be a catalyst for profound personal and societal growth. And therein lies the source of some genuine hatred that is beginning to bubble up towards people that aggressively flaunt even the most basic courtesies and precautions, like wearing any form of nose/mouth covering whatsoever when inside a building. Just yesterday I saw a couple (in their 60s) stiff arm the door greeter at WF who was handing out free mask. It was nonstop people brusquely walking headlong into me. This says nothing about the unhelpful binary thinking around open vs. closed, economy vs. health, normal life vs. totalitarianism. Society’s tool of choice for preventing and solving unfolding catastrophes seems to be to pretend they don’t exist and give up, to reflexively fracture ourselves rather than come together to solve a challenge. And I find that to be the most profoundly depressing thing of all.
- myk9001 6y ago
  "The only way the government could've saved restaurants, nail salons, et al. from suffering similar fate would be by suppressing all information about the virus and going to full denial mode. Otherwise, the customer base would've mostly evaporated" To me it seems this claim contradicts what actually happens in places that didn't impose lockdown or lifted lockdown earlier. To give one example, here's a video from Sweden's bars and restaurants: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/newsbeat-52618788/coronavirus-how-sweden-is-keeping-its-pubs-and-bars-open https://www.bbc.com/news/av/newsbeat-52618788/coronavirus-ho... A pedestrian street in Stockholm on Apr. 1: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2020/04/01/TELEMMGLPICT000228902301_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bqt7YuOpTV-OCUjzn11uechNSi7-SoHEG4mrcpQ7yfjCk.jpeg?imwidth=1400 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2020/04/01/TELE... A market in Malmo during the pandemic Apr. 24: https://media.voltron.voanews.com/Drupal/01live-166/styles/sourced/s3/2020-04/reuters_sweden_coronavirus_24Apr20.JPG?itok=XQOMAbDd https://media.voltron.voanews.com/Drupal/01live-166/styles/s... 5000 gather to see a concert in Tel Aviv: https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2020/05/coronakoncert.jpg https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2020/05/coronak... (https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousands-pack-tel-aviv-concert-in-push-for-return-to-normalcy/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousands-pack-tel-aviv-concer...)
  - mattigames 6y ago
    ...those 5000 were today, _after_ they reached the milestone of only 18 new daily cases thanks to lock-down along other measures. The average health of swedish people is miles ahead of americans, less overweight, less diabetes, less opiod addiction, less hard drugs (cocaine, meth, etc), more average life expectancy, so yeah I'm not sure you are comparing apples-to-apples here. Also the population density in NY is 26400 vs 4800 in sweden, so you could say NY is a "special case" but when you start analyzing each situation a lot of more "special cases" not seen in sweden start to appear in the US.
    - myk9001 6y ago
      "I'm not sure you are comparing apples-to-apples here." You are right. I don't think anyone knows exactly what makes certain places suffer more than others from the virus. I wasn't trying to compare, though. My point is people still go to restaurants, nail salons, et al. during the pandemic. So the claim about evaporating custom base doesn't seem to be grounded in reality. Remember that video with Italian majors loosing their cool? One of them was mad at people breaking the lockdown rules to get a haircut. https://youtu.be/Uo2clI631uA?t=37 https://youtu.be/Uo2clI631uA?t=37
cmdshiftf4 6y ago
The end of this year will be very bleak. By then, the stimulus checks (to businesses and individuals) will have run out, mortgage / loan deferrals will have come due, jobs will be lost and there's continued talk of a second wave of the coronavirus around then.
mindslight 6y ago
"Provoked" is not the right word. Policy makers reacted as slowly as possible, and in quite obtuse ways. The main benefit of the shutdowns was to allow for a few weeks where we could catch our breath from being caught woefully unprepared - proper equipment for healthcare workers, enough N95 masks and hand sanitizer for everybody, new procedures at businesses, etc. Instead politicians continued to do very little or even worked against positive action (just like the month before the shutdowns), and so the news cycle ran its course. Now people are bored of the stalemate, and have devolved into political camps arguing for/against stupid plan A xor stupid plan B. What we really needed and still need is competent leadership with competent public health and competent economic response, especially at the federal level.

TeMPOraL 6y ago

If only many, many thousands of people die due to economic issues, that's still a huge win over what the virus would have done if left to run through the country at full speed. Economic problems would've happened anyway. Global supply chains were already in disarray even before March, as China essentially lost two months of manufacturing output, container ships stopped sailing, and the whole chain was pushed into oscillations it'll take a year or more to recover from (affectionately known as the "bullwhip effect"). Airlines and hotels were done the moment the virus landed in Italy - at this point everyone with half a brain started to cancel any trip they could cancel, weeks before governments in Europe got a clue and started locking down their borders. The only way the government could've saved restaurants, nail salons, et al. from suffering similar fate would be by suppressing all information about the virus and going to full denial mode. Otherwise, the customer base would've mostly evaporated anyway, lockdown or no lockdown, and you'd still have rolling shutdowns as place after place had to be quarantined for 2+ weeks after some employee or customer was found sick. With hotels and restaurants barely surviving on fumes, the pressure on the food supply chain would've been only little worse than it is with these places shut down. Anyway, it's not like the governments around the world started to shut down their countries because they were bored, and wanted to stir things up. They actually dragged their feet for weeks after people following the evolution of the virus started stocking up, limiting interactions, pushing for WFH and practicing social distancing.

noobaccount 6y ago
I immediately know two things about you: 1. You don’t live alone. 2. You have a job. I think we’re all a little short on empathy these days.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  Huh. Point taken. Thank you for reminding me. You're correct in both guesses, and I do sometimes forget that I'm not suffering through the worst of it.
  - exmadscientist 6y ago
    And: 3. You and your loved ones are not dealing with mental illnesses that were under control before the lockdown, but losing control during and after it. This thing is really hard on some people. (The above is not intended to castigate you or drag you through the mud. Just a reminder that everyone's a little different.)
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      That's a good point too, but honestly, the continued lockdown is getting to us too. Probably not enough to qualify for treatment, but enough to be mindful of our own mental states. But I know many others have it much worse.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- thisiszilff 6y ago
  I struggle to understand how those points are related to the substance of the post you're replying to. The situation OP describes is between bad & worse -- you can have empathy for people while recognizing the reality of the situation. Are you arguing that OP's analysis of the situation is wrong because of a lack of empathy for people affected more severely by pandemic?
- jointpdf 6y ago
  Awfully quick to judge eh? I agree with everything the parent comment said, and I: 1. Live alone 2. Have not worked for nearly a year now. Technically I’m on leave due to extreme burnout, so I’m even more hosed (can’t collect unemployment). 3. (see below) Have been dealing with a wicked combo of depression/anxiety/ADD/OCD for 20+ years now, but the last 3 or so have been worse. I’ve been extremely isolated for the last year—I’ve spent countless days in bed, not eating my first meal until 11pm. I was just starting to improve in February, trying to get back on my feet and out into the world. My lifelines were the climbing gym (social+exercise time) and libraries/coffee shops. Luckily I (finally) got into a therapist in January, which is still available and co-pay free. Despite all this, I think the lockdowns were a necessary emergency response to the crisis, with one major caveat—we did (and are doing) too little, too late, and too incompetently. It was glaringly obvious back in February that we needed to start taking measured action to mitigate the spread of the virus (as other countries—Taiwan, NZ, SK, etc did). Our response was an abject failure of reason and leadership, and I hope no one ever forgets that. So although I’m pretty thoroughly fucked, I’m adapting and surviving. In many ways, it’s comforting and galvanizing to have a common cause to rally around. My attitude is that this crisis could be a catalyst for profound personal and societal growth. And therein lies the source of some genuine hatred that is beginning to bubble up towards people that aggressively flaunt even the most basic courtesies and precautions, like wearing any form of nose/mouth covering whatsoever when inside a building. Just yesterday I saw a couple (in their 60s) stiff arm the door greeter at WF who was handing out free mask. It was nonstop people brusquely walking headlong into me. This says nothing about the unhelpful binary thinking around open vs. closed, economy vs. health, normal life vs. totalitarianism. Society’s tool of choice for preventing and solving unfolding catastrophes seems to be to pretend they don’t exist and give up, to reflexively fracture ourselves rather than come together to solve a challenge. And I find that to be the most profoundly depressing thing of all.
myk9001 6y ago
"The only way the government could've saved restaurants, nail salons, et al. from suffering similar fate would be by suppressing all information about the virus and going to full denial mode. Otherwise, the customer base would've mostly evaporated" To me it seems this claim contradicts what actually happens in places that didn't impose lockdown or lifted lockdown earlier. To give one example, here's a video from Sweden's bars and restaurants: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/newsbeat-52618788/coronavirus-how-sweden-is-keeping-its-pubs-and-bars-open https://www.bbc.com/news/av/newsbeat-52618788/coronavirus-ho... A pedestrian street in Stockholm on Apr. 1: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2020/04/01/TELEMMGLPICT000228902301_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bqt7YuOpTV-OCUjzn11uechNSi7-SoHEG4mrcpQ7yfjCk.jpeg?imwidth=1400 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2020/04/01/TELE... A market in Malmo during the pandemic Apr. 24: https://media.voltron.voanews.com/Drupal/01live-166/styles/sourced/s3/2020-04/reuters_sweden_coronavirus_24Apr20.JPG?itok=XQOMAbDd https://media.voltron.voanews.com/Drupal/01live-166/styles/s... 5000 gather to see a concert in Tel Aviv: https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2020/05/coronakoncert.jpg https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2020/05/coronak... (https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousands-pack-tel-aviv-concert-in-push-for-return-to-normalcy/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousands-pack-tel-aviv-concer...)
- mattigames 6y ago
  ...those 5000 were today, _after_ they reached the milestone of only 18 new daily cases thanks to lock-down along other measures. The average health of swedish people is miles ahead of americans, less overweight, less diabetes, less opiod addiction, less hard drugs (cocaine, meth, etc), more average life expectancy, so yeah I'm not sure you are comparing apples-to-apples here. Also the population density in NY is 26400 vs 4800 in sweden, so you could say NY is a "special case" but when you start analyzing each situation a lot of more "special cases" not seen in sweden start to appear in the US.
  - myk9001 6y ago
    "I'm not sure you are comparing apples-to-apples here." You are right. I don't think anyone knows exactly what makes certain places suffer more than others from the virus. I wasn't trying to compare, though. My point is people still go to restaurants, nail salons, et al. during the pandemic. So the claim about evaporating custom base doesn't seem to be grounded in reality. Remember that video with Italian majors loosing their cool? One of them was mad at people breaking the lockdown rules to get a haircut. https://youtu.be/Uo2clI631uA?t=37 https://youtu.be/Uo2clI631uA?t=37

cmdshiftf4 6y ago

The end of this year will be very bleak. By then, the stimulus checks (to businesses and individuals) will have run out, mortgage / loan deferrals will have come due, jobs will be lost and there's continued talk of a second wave of the coronavirus around then.

mindslight 6y ago

"Provoked" is not the right word. Policy makers reacted as slowly as possible, and in quite obtuse ways. The main benefit of the shutdowns was to allow for a few weeks where we could catch our breath from being caught woefully unprepared - proper equipment for healthcare workers, enough N95 masks and hand sanitizer for everybody, new procedures at businesses, etc. Instead politicians continued to do very little or even worked against positive action (just like the month before the shutdowns), and so the news cycle ran its course. Now people are bored of the stalemate, and have devolved into political camps arguing for/against stupid plan A xor stupid plan B. What we really needed and still need is competent leadership with competent public health and competent economic response, especially at the federal level.