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> "What business we choose to build with the language will outweighs the impact of language choice a hundredfold." This is on one hand a truism that actually a

> "What business we choose to build with the language will outweighs the impact of language choice a hundredfold." This is on one hand a truism that actually adds nothing to the discussion. In achieving success, of course the business matters. Even more so the best simplifications come from understanding the business domain, not from the tools used. --- On the other hand it's also patently false. Build a web browser in Ruby. Build an operating system in JavaScript. Build your average web app in C/C++. The tools used have inherent limits, being optimized for certain domains and not others, can make us more productive, can lower the defect rate and can keep us happy enough to see the project released. In my experience _some_ static FP languages can lower the defect rate, can make certain problems easier to tackle, can make the code easier to maintain and refactor and due to performance being reasonable, they tend to be more general purpose than other languages — this trait being a consequence of static typing, making performance good enough, coupled with the languages themselves still being high level enough. --- > "learning Lisp at work" Ah, I see the problem ... many of you thought Lisp is some sort of secret sauce. It isn't, it never was, Lisp is a freaking mess. The real problem in our industry is not applying the scientific method for advancing it. We thus rely on fashion and salesmen to sell us magic pills.

pron 6y ago
> On the other hand it's also patently false. The sentence "language choice matters far less than we like to think", which means something like "switching between most pairs of languages in most situations doesn't make a big difference", and your examples which mean "there exist pairs of languages as well as situations where switching between them makes a big difference" are completely compatible. In fact, I would say that the latter is not interesting because of course we know there are situations where high-performance languages are more or less appropriate, but the interesting question is whether languages that have similar aims and performance, and differ mostly in their linguistic features make a big difference. > In my experience Unfortunately, people will also support the effectiveness of homeopathic medicine based on their experience, and much more enthusiastically. I'm not doubting your sincerity, nor even the facts of your situation, but this doesn't count as evidence. On the other hand, the fact that different languages are tried in different places, in an industry with strong selective pressures, the fact that no single language or paradigm completely overtakes all others is evidence in favor of there not being a very big bottom-line impact.
- willtim 6y ago
  > the fact that no single language or paradigm completely overtakes all others is evidence in favor of there not being a very big bottom-line impact. Or perhaps because no paradigm is universally applicable to all cases. There will be a bottom line impact if the wrong tool is picked for the job.
  - pron 6y ago
    Sure, but what I'm saying applies when comparing different languages that are reasonable choices for a given domain. Anyway, this isn't a poll, and while opinions -- one way or another -- shape the popular opinion, they don't settle the empirical question.
lifeisstillgood 6y ago
>>> this trait being a consequence of static typing, This is kind of my point. The goal is to build the right thing, right. Languages aren't the point, the advantage is techniques/ capabilities that come with it. 20 years ago memory management was a huge advantage in building the right thing right. And it had to be built into the language. but 20 years ago I had what I would now call a CD system, built around pxe-boot and bash. It made building the right thing right much easier, and had nothing to do with language choice. As does all the good things we consider - from engaged business teams to unit testing and pager duty. Our language choice impacts some of that, more often our organisational maturity matters more. Yes some languages are "better" than others - but if the goal is to have an organisation doing something, then tools to build the organisation matter more. Software will of course be at the heart of that, but the language choice won't (much).

pron 6y ago

> On the other hand it's also patently false. The sentence "language choice matters far less than we like to think", which means something like "switching between most pairs of languages in most situations doesn't make a big difference", and your examples which mean "there exist pairs of languages as well as situations where switching between them makes a big difference" are completely compatible. In fact, I would say that the latter is not interesting because of course we know there are situations where high-performance languages are more or less appropriate, but the interesting question is whether languages that have similar aims and performance, and differ mostly in their linguistic features make a big difference. > In my experience Unfortunately, people will also support the effectiveness of homeopathic medicine based on their experience, and much more enthusiastically. I'm not doubting your sincerity, nor even the facts of your situation, but this doesn't count as evidence. On the other hand, the fact that different languages are tried in different places, in an industry with strong selective pressures, the fact that no single language or paradigm completely overtakes all others is evidence in favor of there not being a very big bottom-line impact.

willtim 6y ago
> the fact that no single language or paradigm completely overtakes all others is evidence in favor of there not being a very big bottom-line impact. Or perhaps because no paradigm is universally applicable to all cases. There will be a bottom line impact if the wrong tool is picked for the job.
- pron 6y ago
  Sure, but what I'm saying applies when comparing different languages that are reasonable choices for a given domain. Anyway, this isn't a poll, and while opinions -- one way or another -- shape the popular opinion, they don't settle the empirical question.

lifeisstillgood 6y ago

>>> this trait being a consequence of static typing, This is kind of my point. The goal is to build the right thing, right. Languages aren't the point, the advantage is techniques/ capabilities that come with it. 20 years ago memory management was a huge advantage in building the right thing right. And it had to be built into the language. but 20 years ago I had what I would now call a CD system, built around pxe-boot and bash. It made building the right thing right much easier, and had nothing to do with language choice. As does all the good things we consider - from engaged business teams to unit testing and pager duty. Our language choice impacts some of that, more often our organisational maturity matters more. Yes some languages are "better" than others - but if the goal is to have an organisation doing something, then tools to build the organisation matter more. Software will of course be at the heart of that, but the language choice won't (much).