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There would still be markets and competition. There would be some baseline price increase when people stop being exploited. At a certain point equilibrium will

There would still be markets and competition. There would be some baseline price increase when people stop being exploited. At a certain point equilibrium will be met and someone will come along with cheaper toilet paper. The difference will be there are more consumers in a safe position to make purchasing decisions.

zelly 6y ago
You don't get it. The cost of labor would rise. You would have to pay paper factory workers more when they could just not work at all. The truck driver also needs to get paid more. The shelf stocker also needs to get paid more. The security guard needs to get paid more. Eventually you get $100 toilet rolls. > At a certain point equilibrium will be met and someone will come along with cheaper toilet paper. Yes, from overseas, where they have no UBI. That's one of most insidious parts of all of this.
- charlesu 6y ago
  What amount of UBI gets us to $100 toilet rolls?
  - zelly 6y ago
    Consider wages 10xing and taxes becoming over 50% and it's not hard to see how firms would have to charge more money for their products just to remain in business. UBI is central planning of the economy, where the government decides the market value of you simply existing is worth $1000 a month or whatever. Whenever the government thinks they are smart enough to set prices for things, historically people end up dying of hunger. The value of the dollar will collapse unless other countries also adopt UBI, but of course that wouldn't be possible since UBI in America would hinge on cheap overseas labor. Only WE are allowed to be lazy bums! At some point the dollar would disconnect from intrinsic value and no longer represent money, because people are being given it simply for existing. One day we we would show up to the Chinese or Mexican port asking for a ship full of All The Things We Need To Survive and they throw us away because they don't want our monopoly money. That's when the music stops and the real panic begins.
snidane 6y ago
Competitive markets will probably be fine. There seems to be enough automation in manufacturing businesses driving the prices down. How do you deal with monopoly businesses? What prevents them from rising prices to pocket sudden excess of UBI money?
- ebalit 6y ago
  Abuse of a dominant position in a market is already forbidden in many countries. I guess that those monopolies would be split to ensure that the market is competitive.
  - snidane 6y ago
    First, some monopolies are monopolies forever - network and utility monopolies. Second, you still have to deal with aggregate monopolies - ie when one societal class has monopoly pricing power over another. You cannot break up these as they are already broken up. The prime example is real estate and land market. Landlords have monopolistic pricing power over tenants. Price for rent is not governed by landlord's costs but by what the tenant can bear. If you inject UBI to the economy then tenants can suddenly bear more and landlords can and will rise rent prices convincing others that their cost increased so it's justified. It's not the inflation of produced goods which would kill VAT or similarly funded UBI but rent and monopoly good inflation which by definition can't be competed away. Therefore before you can implement UBI you have to deal with monopolies first. Hint1: Fix it by implementing monopoly based taxes such as Land Value Tax and natural resource auctions. You will raise more than you need and will also abolish labor taxes stiffling productivity. Hint2: Georgists (economical movement after guy named Henry George in 19th century - who coined the term "Progressive") were discussing UBI ideas already pretty extensively and understood these implications. They realized the monopoly problem and made it central to their teaching. Only instead of UBI they called it a Citizen's Dividend.
    - fastball 6y ago
      > First, some monopolies are monopolies forever - network and utility monopolies. Could you expand on this a bit more? Network and utility companies can clearly be broken up. The actual infra can be owned by municipalities. > Price for rent is not governed by landlord's costs but by what the tenant can bear. Citation needed. There is competition amongst landlords as long as housing supply is not severely limited. If supply is limited, that is a failing of zoning policy. The flat I just started renting a few months ago was priced on supply-and-demand, not on how much I earn (otherwise the landlord did a pretty terrible job of gouging me because relative to my income I got a good deal). You can look to Japan as a country where zoning policy isn't totally nuts like it is in parts of the US. We are dealing with monopolies, the current administration notwithstanding. Andrew Yang in particular has a number of thoughts on these issue: https://www.yang2020.com/blog/regulating-technology-firms-in-the-21st-century/ https://www.yang2020.com/blog/regulating-technology-firms-in... https://www.yang2020.com/policies/net-neutrality/ https://www.yang2020.com/policies/net-neutrality/ https://www.yang2020.com/policies/zoning/ https://www.yang2020.com/policies/zoning/ https://www.yang2020.com/policies/financial-transaction-tax/ https://www.yang2020.com/policies/financial-transaction-tax/

zelly 6y ago

You don't get it. The cost of labor would rise. You would have to pay paper factory workers more when they could just not work at all. The truck driver also needs to get paid more. The shelf stocker also needs to get paid more. The security guard needs to get paid more. Eventually you get $100 toilet rolls. > At a certain point equilibrium will be met and someone will come along with cheaper toilet paper. Yes, from overseas, where they have no UBI. That's one of most insidious parts of all of this.

charlesu 6y ago
What amount of UBI gets us to $100 toilet rolls?
- zelly 6y ago
  Consider wages 10xing and taxes becoming over 50% and it's not hard to see how firms would have to charge more money for their products just to remain in business. UBI is central planning of the economy, where the government decides the market value of you simply existing is worth $1000 a month or whatever. Whenever the government thinks they are smart enough to set prices for things, historically people end up dying of hunger. The value of the dollar will collapse unless other countries also adopt UBI, but of course that wouldn't be possible since UBI in America would hinge on cheap overseas labor. Only WE are allowed to be lazy bums! At some point the dollar would disconnect from intrinsic value and no longer represent money, because people are being given it simply for existing. One day we we would show up to the Chinese or Mexican port asking for a ship full of All The Things We Need To Survive and they throw us away because they don't want our monopoly money. That's when the music stops and the real panic begins.

snidane 6y ago

Competitive markets will probably be fine. There seems to be enough automation in manufacturing businesses driving the prices down. How do you deal with monopoly businesses? What prevents them from rising prices to pocket sudden excess of UBI money?

ebalit 6y ago
Abuse of a dominant position in a market is already forbidden in many countries. I guess that those monopolies would be split to ensure that the market is competitive.
- snidane 6y ago
  First, some monopolies are monopolies forever - network and utility monopolies. Second, you still have to deal with aggregate monopolies - ie when one societal class has monopoly pricing power over another. You cannot break up these as they are already broken up. The prime example is real estate and land market. Landlords have monopolistic pricing power over tenants. Price for rent is not governed by landlord's costs but by what the tenant can bear. If you inject UBI to the economy then tenants can suddenly bear more and landlords can and will rise rent prices convincing others that their cost increased so it's justified. It's not the inflation of produced goods which would kill VAT or similarly funded UBI but rent and monopoly good inflation which by definition can't be competed away. Therefore before you can implement UBI you have to deal with monopolies first. Hint1: Fix it by implementing monopoly based taxes such as Land Value Tax and natural resource auctions. You will raise more than you need and will also abolish labor taxes stiffling productivity. Hint2: Georgists (economical movement after guy named Henry George in 19th century - who coined the term "Progressive") were discussing UBI ideas already pretty extensively and understood these implications. They realized the monopoly problem and made it central to their teaching. Only instead of UBI they called it a Citizen's Dividend.
  - fastball 6y ago
    > First, some monopolies are monopolies forever - network and utility monopolies. Could you expand on this a bit more? Network and utility companies can clearly be broken up. The actual infra can be owned by municipalities. > Price for rent is not governed by landlord's costs but by what the tenant can bear. Citation needed. There is competition amongst landlords as long as housing supply is not severely limited. If supply is limited, that is a failing of zoning policy. The flat I just started renting a few months ago was priced on supply-and-demand, not on how much I earn (otherwise the landlord did a pretty terrible job of gouging me because relative to my income I got a good deal). You can look to Japan as a country where zoning policy isn't totally nuts like it is in parts of the US. We are dealing with monopolies, the current administration notwithstanding. Andrew Yang in particular has a number of thoughts on these issue: https://www.yang2020.com/blog/regulating-technology-firms-in-the-21st-century/ https://www.yang2020.com/blog/regulating-technology-firms-in... https://www.yang2020.com/policies/net-neutrality/ https://www.yang2020.com/policies/net-neutrality/ https://www.yang2020.com/policies/zoning/ https://www.yang2020.com/policies/zoning/ https://www.yang2020.com/policies/financial-transaction-tax/ https://www.yang2020.com/policies/financial-transaction-tax/