3 ms·

When you say a "doubting agnostic," I guess you mean "agnostic but doubting it, i.e., maybe there is a God." a) I really like the Narnia books. I tried once to

by javert 6y ago

When you say a "doubting agnostic," I guess you mean "agnostic but doubting it, i.e., maybe there is a God." a) I really like the Narnia books. I tried once to read one of C.S. Lewis's apologetics books (can't remember which now), but gave up very quickly, because the writing style seemed highly disingenuous. I didn't sense much potential in his work to have a strong, rational argument that someone not already committed to faith would accept. Maybe I should try again, more carefully. Is he the best apologist you can recommend, or is there someone else? b) What is the evidence in the physical world that you are talking about? I take it that this is in addition to "word of mouth" across the centuries. I'm not aware of any such (additional) evidence. I think Jesus was a historical person---there is enough evidence for that. But that doesn't prove the religious claims. Undoubtedly you would agree that there have been many false prophets (e.g., Zoroastrian prophets, to try to pick something not likely to offend or be controversial). c) Would the evidence you point to be enough to convince you to believe in Christianity, or is "personal experience" necessary to bridge the gap? If it's the latter, what kind of personal experience is it? In the interest of full disclosure, I just want to understand what makes religious people believe what they do. I'm not even remotely open to accepting religion, myself.

foolinaround 6y ago
>Is he the best apologist you can recommend, or is there someone else? Take your pick from here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_apologetics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_apologetics Some come more heavily from science like Francis Collins, some from theology like Sproul, from philosophy like Craig, pick your poison. the one thing you need to do however, is to give the benefit of the doubt - because it really comes down to splitting of hairs. Once you are able to grasp their arguments and its basis, then you can see if you agree with it. -- the bible itself is a set of writings over the ages - with its dates proven as a fact. Within it, we see historical events that were foretold come to pass. Maybe you might want to look at the bible from a fresh perspective ( from a Hebrew lens ) - [1] would give you a deeper understanding of the history, culture, reasons behind some of what appears to be crazy etc. At the very least, you will leave with a deeper understanding of that culture etc. -- the next question you might have is 'why do I need to trust this literature' It has to be divinely inspired. Written at a time when the worldview did not know the ends of the earth and people believed that one would fall off, the bible stated ( in Isaiah ) that the earth is a circle; people thought it allegorical till they found out it was; just 1 example. -- About the Hebrew language itself -- it too was not man-made. One example, in hebrew, the words that are variants of the same letters have related meanings -- so the words for 'ear' and 'balance' were almost the same and no one had a clue why -- till they found out last century, that balance is tied to the ear. ( i am just giving you small examples ). There are tons such out there waiting to be studied. -- > I just want to understand what makes religious people believe what they do. I'm not even remotely open to accepting religion Just be careful as you may get more than you bargain for! I myself, was on a quest towards getting more rooted in atheism that I started studying books and debates, and then found about apologetics ( I was not exposed since i was born a christian and lived a nominal christian life). I turned out to experience the faith and now I am in a dialogue with you. In the interest of full disclosure, I would love for you to accept Christ but am humbled and also comforted that it is not me who can do it, it is only you with God's leading. I share my experiences hoping that something on my journey can help you in yours. This journey has made me live life with a purpose and am much joyful than before ( even though I have lost some things along the way) -- [1] https://torahclass.com/teacher/author/tom-bradford/old-testament-studies/old-testament-studies-genesis https://torahclass.com/teacher/author/tom-bradford/old-testa...
- javert 6y ago
  I get what you are saying about the Bible containing information that couldn't have been known at the time it was written, as a hypothetical way to prove that it was divinely inspired. I'm not convinced, but I think it's an interesting argument. Well, it's an argument, let's say that. Do you know if there's a good source that collects all of these types of claims in one place? Would you drop your faith if you stopped being convinced that this kind of thing was good evidence? When I was a teenager I believed in the Bible codes [1], which is a similar idea. But I eventually had to admit that I didn't have good evidence to support that argument. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code
  - freekisanders 6y ago
    Reading this thread with interest (even though it is off-topic). I'm also a Christian. What convinced me (among other things) is historical and scientific accuracy. As said, there is enough prove for the historical existence of persons like Jesus and David. And many biblical events and dates can be confirmed through archaeology. As to scientific claims, a good collection of articles would be: https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/science/ https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/science/ One that fits your question: https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-no1-2018-jan-feb/is-the-bible-outdated/ https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-no1-2018-...
  - javert 6y ago
    I got a response from "freekisanders" that can only be seen with "showdead" turned on. I am reposting here because he made a legitimate comment and it should be seen by people. Freekisanders---if you see this, you need to make a new HN account. Mods---please un-dead this guy, he seems benevolent. Here is his comment: Reading this thread with interest (even though it is off-topic). I'm also a Christian. What convinced me (among other things) is historical and scientific accuracy. As said, there is enough prove for the historical existence of persons like Jesus and David. And many biblical events and dates can be confirmed through archaeology. As to scientific claims, a good collection of articles would be: https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/science/ https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/science/ One that fits your question: https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-no1-2018-jan-feb/is-the-bible-outdated/ https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-no1-2018-...

by javert 6y ago

foolinaround 6y ago

>Is he the best apologist you can recommend, or is there someone else? Take your pick from here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_apologetics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_apologetics Some come more heavily from science like Francis Collins, some from theology like Sproul, from philosophy like Craig, pick your poison. the one thing you need to do however, is to give the benefit of the doubt - because it really comes down to splitting of hairs. Once you are able to grasp their arguments and its basis, then you can see if you agree with it. -- the bible itself is a set of writings over the ages - with its dates proven as a fact. Within it, we see historical events that were foretold come to pass. Maybe you might want to look at the bible from a fresh perspective ( from a Hebrew lens ) - [1] would give you a deeper understanding of the history, culture, reasons behind some of what appears to be crazy etc. At the very least, you will leave with a deeper understanding of that culture etc. -- the next question you might have is 'why do I need to trust this literature' It has to be divinely inspired. Written at a time when the worldview did not know the ends of the earth and people believed that one would fall off, the bible stated ( in Isaiah ) that the earth is a circle; people thought it allegorical till they found out it was; just 1 example. -- About the Hebrew language itself -- it too was not man-made. One example, in hebrew, the words that are variants of the same letters have related meanings -- so the words for 'ear' and 'balance' were almost the same and no one had a clue why -- till they found out last century, that balance is tied to the ear. ( i am just giving you small examples ). There are tons such out there waiting to be studied. -- > I just want to understand what makes religious people believe what they do. I'm not even remotely open to accepting religion Just be careful as you may get more than you bargain for! I myself, was on a quest towards getting more rooted in atheism that I started studying books and debates, and then found about apologetics ( I was not exposed since i was born a christian and lived a nominal christian life). I turned out to experience the faith and now I am in a dialogue with you. In the interest of full disclosure, I would love for you to accept Christ but am humbled and also comforted that it is not me who can do it, it is only you with God's leading. I share my experiences hoping that something on my journey can help you in yours. This journey has made me live life with a purpose and am much joyful than before ( even though I have lost some things along the way) -- [1] https://torahclass.com/teacher/author/tom-bradford/old-testament-studies/old-testament-studies-genesis https://torahclass.com/teacher/author/tom-bradford/old-testa...

javert 6y ago
I get what you are saying about the Bible containing information that couldn't have been known at the time it was written, as a hypothetical way to prove that it was divinely inspired. I'm not convinced, but I think it's an interesting argument. Well, it's an argument, let's say that. Do you know if there's a good source that collects all of these types of claims in one place? Would you drop your faith if you stopped being convinced that this kind of thing was good evidence? When I was a teenager I believed in the Bible codes [1], which is a similar idea. But I eventually had to admit that I didn't have good evidence to support that argument. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code
- freekisanders 6y ago
  Reading this thread with interest (even though it is off-topic). I'm also a Christian. What convinced me (among other things) is historical and scientific accuracy. As said, there is enough prove for the historical existence of persons like Jesus and David. And many biblical events and dates can be confirmed through archaeology. As to scientific claims, a good collection of articles would be: https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/science/ https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/science/ One that fits your question: https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-no1-2018-jan-feb/is-the-bible-outdated/ https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-no1-2018-...
- javert 6y ago
  I got a response from "freekisanders" that can only be seen with "showdead" turned on. I am reposting here because he made a legitimate comment and it should be seen by people. Freekisanders---if you see this, you need to make a new HN account. Mods---please un-dead this guy, he seems benevolent. Here is his comment: Reading this thread with interest (even though it is off-topic). I'm also a Christian. What convinced me (among other things) is historical and scientific accuracy. As said, there is enough prove for the historical existence of persons like Jesus and David. And many biblical events and dates can be confirmed through archaeology. As to scientific claims, a good collection of articles would be: https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/science/ https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/science/ One that fits your question: https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-no1-2018-jan-feb/is-the-bible-outdated/ https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-no1-2018-...