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1) The "U" in "UBI" means that working another job does not stop you from receiving UBI, which means it may still make sense to do so if you want more income. U

1) The "U" in "UBI" means that working another job does not stop you from receiving UBI, which means it may still make sense to do so if you want more income. UBI is supposed to be enough to live on, not enough to have everything you might want; there are at least preliminary results that show UBI doesn't stop people from working. 2) UBI will tend to mean less people willing to work low-paying unpleasant jobs, which means employers will have to pay more for those jobs. People who would only take such jobs because they have to, but don't actually want those jobs, will no longer need to take them. 3) Because of (2), more research effort and investment will go into automating and otherwise reducing the number of humans required for unpleasant jobs. And with UBI, that becomes an unmitigated good, with no worry about putting people out of work.

drak0n1c 6y ago
It's a gamble - either 2 will lead to 3, or 2 will lead to input and output prices of goods being raised. Probably some of both. Hopefully more of 3 than the alternative, because the alternative scenario of prices rising has negative consequences in the form of economic deadweight loss even if UBI pays for the price increases.
- hrktb 6y ago
  2) and 3) are very simplistic predictions and we don’t have any idea if it has a higher chance to go that way. For instance an effect of UBI would be disappearance of bullshit jobs. A lot of job won’t see wages increase and will just be automated/optimized away instead. OTOH it could mean getting rid of minimum salary, which would lower the cost for high demand/vocational low paying work for instance (dog walking, cafe staff, event staff etc.) All in all I’m not sure it’s as simple as saying “people have money without working = prices go up”
zelly 6y ago
> which means employers will have to pay more for those jobs Yeah no kidding so there will be hyperinflation. Making the net effect of UBI almost zilch. What use is $1000 bucks when toilet paper is $100 a roll. > 3) Because of (2), more research effort and investment will go into automating and otherwise reducing the number of humans required for unpleasant jobs. And with UBI, that becomes an unmitigated good, with no worry about putting people out of work. So there will be a giant underclass of people who live on nothing but UBI (UBIers) while a small minority of elite researchers in corporate labs come up with more ways to keep the UBIers from earning their own living. Great. And who buys all the stuff? Is the "stuff" just for the gilded class smart enough to work? Or do we just give the UBIers a raise every now and then to "stimulate" the economy? How is this not communism?
- jgoodhcg 6y ago
  There would still be markets and competition. There would be some baseline price increase when people stop being exploited. At a certain point equilibrium will be met and someone will come along with cheaper toilet paper. The difference will be there are more consumers in a safe position to make purchasing decisions.
  - zelly 6y ago
    You don't get it. The cost of labor would rise. You would have to pay paper factory workers more when they could just not work at all. The truck driver also needs to get paid more. The shelf stocker also needs to get paid more. The security guard needs to get paid more. Eventually you get $100 toilet rolls. > At a certain point equilibrium will be met and someone will come along with cheaper toilet paper. Yes, from overseas, where they have no UBI. That's one of most insidious parts of all of this.
    - charlesu 6y ago
      What amount of UBI gets us to $100 toilet rolls?
      - zelly 6y ago
        Consider wages 10xing and taxes becoming over 50% and it's not hard to see how firms would have to charge more money for their products just to remain in business. UBI is central planning of the economy, where the government decides the market value of you simply existing is worth $1000 a month or whatever. Whenever the government thinks they are smart enough to set prices for things, historically people end up dying of hunger. The value of the dollar will collapse unless other countries also adopt UBI, but of course that wouldn't be possible since UBI in America would hinge on cheap overseas labor. Only WE are allowed to be lazy bums! At some point the dollar would disconnect from intrinsic value and no longer represent money, because people are being given it simply for existing. One day we we would show up to the Chinese or Mexican port asking for a ship full of All The Things We Need To Survive and they throw us away because they don't want our monopoly money. That's when the music stops and the real panic begins.
flurdy 6y ago
You can already see this in countries with less extreme difference in the society's economy, e.g. Scandinavian countries. They do not have UBI (yet) but have generous benefits for unemployment, sick pay, disabilities and pseudo minimum pay so that most people earn a decent income. I am not an economist or sociologist but the economy still works, most people still work and it has lead to 2) and 3). There is less interest in the less desirable jobs so their salary has subsequently increased. And there is heavy investment in automation, in farms, in manufacturing, in shops, etc. It is not perfect though. Maybe UBI will be even better.

drak0n1c 6y ago

It's a gamble - either 2 will lead to 3, or 2 will lead to input and output prices of goods being raised. Probably some of both. Hopefully more of 3 than the alternative, because the alternative scenario of prices rising has negative consequences in the form of economic deadweight loss even if UBI pays for the price increases.

hrktb 6y ago
2) and 3) are very simplistic predictions and we don’t have any idea if it has a higher chance to go that way. For instance an effect of UBI would be disappearance of bullshit jobs. A lot of job won’t see wages increase and will just be automated/optimized away instead. OTOH it could mean getting rid of minimum salary, which would lower the cost for high demand/vocational low paying work for instance (dog walking, cafe staff, event staff etc.) All in all I’m not sure it’s as simple as saying “people have money without working = prices go up”

zelly 6y ago

> which means employers will have to pay more for those jobs Yeah no kidding so there will be hyperinflation. Making the net effect of UBI almost zilch. What use is $1000 bucks when toilet paper is $100 a roll. > 3) Because of (2), more research effort and investment will go into automating and otherwise reducing the number of humans required for unpleasant jobs. And with UBI, that becomes an unmitigated good, with no worry about putting people out of work. So there will be a giant underclass of people who live on nothing but UBI (UBIers) while a small minority of elite researchers in corporate labs come up with more ways to keep the UBIers from earning their own living. Great. And who buys all the stuff? Is the "stuff" just for the gilded class smart enough to work? Or do we just give the UBIers a raise every now and then to "stimulate" the economy? How is this not communism?

jgoodhcg 6y ago
There would still be markets and competition. There would be some baseline price increase when people stop being exploited. At a certain point equilibrium will be met and someone will come along with cheaper toilet paper. The difference will be there are more consumers in a safe position to make purchasing decisions.
- zelly 6y ago
  You don't get it. The cost of labor would rise. You would have to pay paper factory workers more when they could just not work at all. The truck driver also needs to get paid more. The shelf stocker also needs to get paid more. The security guard needs to get paid more. Eventually you get $100 toilet rolls. > At a certain point equilibrium will be met and someone will come along with cheaper toilet paper. Yes, from overseas, where they have no UBI. That's one of most insidious parts of all of this.
  - charlesu 6y ago
    What amount of UBI gets us to $100 toilet rolls?
    - zelly 6y ago
      Consider wages 10xing and taxes becoming over 50% and it's not hard to see how firms would have to charge more money for their products just to remain in business. UBI is central planning of the economy, where the government decides the market value of you simply existing is worth $1000 a month or whatever. Whenever the government thinks they are smart enough to set prices for things, historically people end up dying of hunger. The value of the dollar will collapse unless other countries also adopt UBI, but of course that wouldn't be possible since UBI in America would hinge on cheap overseas labor. Only WE are allowed to be lazy bums! At some point the dollar would disconnect from intrinsic value and no longer represent money, because people are being given it simply for existing. One day we we would show up to the Chinese or Mexican port asking for a ship full of All The Things We Need To Survive and they throw us away because they don't want our monopoly money. That's when the music stops and the real panic begins.

flurdy 6y ago

You can already see this in countries with less extreme difference in the society's economy, e.g. Scandinavian countries. They do not have UBI (yet) but have generous benefits for unemployment, sick pay, disabilities and pseudo minimum pay so that most people earn a decent income. I am not an economist or sociologist but the economy still works, most people still work and it has lead to 2) and 3). There is less interest in the less desirable jobs so their salary has subsequently increased. And there is heavy investment in automation, in farms, in manufacturing, in shops, etc. It is not perfect though. Maybe UBI will be even better.