4 ms·

Yes, it would have been better if British imperialists had never decided to stick their swords where they didn't belong, but they did. Whether HK would have bee

Yes, it would have been better if British imperialists had never decided to stick their swords where they didn't belong, but they did. Whether HK would have been freer today if Britain hadn't done so is conjecture. What we do know is that Britain violently subjugated HK, but before they left they liberalized the place to a greater degree than the CCP would have, as evidenced by the CCP's desire to deliberalize the place. Bringing up "British rule was no panacea" when we're talking about the CCP's efforts to deliberalize a de facto free society reads like you're apologizing for what the CCP wants to do.

free_rms 6y ago
I was responding to a comment that characterized British rule as 'liberal government'. If we're so much better, maybe we can let up on the propaganda and whitewashing of history?
- thenewwazoo 6y ago
  But it was liberal, except when it wasn’t. It’s not whitewashing to characterize the end result as liberal, and I don’t think it’s necessary or productive to add a disclaimer to every description when the discussion revolves around comparing today’s liberalism (which was a result of British rule) with the CCP’s (which would undoubtedly be less so). (Edited to specify that the end result was liberal, not the whole thing)
Normille 6y ago
>What we do know is that Britain violently subjugated HK, but before they left they liberalized the place to a greater degree than the CCP would have... Funny how Britain was happy to rule over Hong Kong for centuries without introducing democratic reform and then suddenly 'liberalised' things only when they were on the point of handing HK back to China. Almost as if it was done with precisely the intent of leaving the Chinese with as much of a hot potato as possible. They don't call it "Perfidious Albion" for nothing!
- free_rms 6y ago
  Finally, someone gets it.
- mannykannot 6y ago
  > Funny how Britain was happy to rule over Hong Kong for centuries... Britain first raised its flag over Hong Kong island in 1842. The New Territories, without which Hong Kong is not a viable independent entity, were leased to Britain under a 99-year lease in 1898. This was a consequence of one of the worst aspects of colonial Britain, the Opium wars, but, as hker points out [1], since the 1960s Britain has attempted to democratize Hong Kong, but was constrained by China's realistic threat of invasion. There's not much credit to any side here, but let's at least get the history right. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23260302 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23260302
  - av_engr 6y ago
    Agree on the part about China threatening since the 60s. If I recall correctly, there was a wave of movement on British Colonies raising referendum on independence from Britain since the 60s ? Hong Kong did not earn that right due to Communist China's threat on "liberating" Hong Kong if it was given independence.
    - Normille 6y ago
      Can you cite any documentary evidence for these Chinese threats, dating back to the 1960s? I'm not saying you're wrong but China in the 1960s was an unindustrialised, agrarian 3rd-world country which was barely able to feed its own people. I suspect Britain [a rich, industrialised, nuclear-armed member of NATO] would have laughed in their face, if China had issued any threats. We shouldn't fall into the trap of looking at the might & modernity of China today and thinking t'was ever thus. I'm old enough to remember when news footage from China would show countless thousands of people, clad in denim boiler suits, riding bicycles through Peking, with nary a car to be seen. [ASIDE: Ironic that moving towards vehicle-free cities with a cycling populace is now seen as aspirational and a sign of progress whereas, back then, it was an indicator of how backward China was]

free_rms 6y ago

I was responding to a comment that characterized British rule as 'liberal government'. If we're so much better, maybe we can let up on the propaganda and whitewashing of history?

thenewwazoo 6y ago
But it was liberal, except when it wasn’t. It’s not whitewashing to characterize the end result as liberal, and I don’t think it’s necessary or productive to add a disclaimer to every description when the discussion revolves around comparing today’s liberalism (which was a result of British rule) with the CCP’s (which would undoubtedly be less so). (Edited to specify that the end result was liberal, not the whole thing)

Normille 6y ago

>What we do know is that Britain violently subjugated HK, but before they left they liberalized the place to a greater degree than the CCP would have... Funny how Britain was happy to rule over Hong Kong for centuries without introducing democratic reform and then suddenly 'liberalised' things only when they were on the point of handing HK back to China. Almost as if it was done with precisely the intent of leaving the Chinese with as much of a hot potato as possible. They don't call it "Perfidious Albion" for nothing!

free_rms 6y ago
Finally, someone gets it.
mannykannot 6y ago
> Funny how Britain was happy to rule over Hong Kong for centuries... Britain first raised its flag over Hong Kong island in 1842. The New Territories, without which Hong Kong is not a viable independent entity, were leased to Britain under a 99-year lease in 1898. This was a consequence of one of the worst aspects of colonial Britain, the Opium wars, but, as hker points out [1], since the 1960s Britain has attempted to democratize Hong Kong, but was constrained by China's realistic threat of invasion. There's not much credit to any side here, but let's at least get the history right. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23260302 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23260302
- av_engr 6y ago
  Agree on the part about China threatening since the 60s. If I recall correctly, there was a wave of movement on British Colonies raising referendum on independence from Britain since the 60s ? Hong Kong did not earn that right due to Communist China's threat on "liberating" Hong Kong if it was given independence.
  - Normille 6y ago
    Can you cite any documentary evidence for these Chinese threats, dating back to the 1960s? I'm not saying you're wrong but China in the 1960s was an unindustrialised, agrarian 3rd-world country which was barely able to feed its own people. I suspect Britain [a rich, industrialised, nuclear-armed member of NATO] would have laughed in their face, if China had issued any threats. We shouldn't fall into the trap of looking at the might & modernity of China today and thinking t'was ever thus. I'm old enough to remember when news footage from China would show countless thousands of people, clad in denim boiler suits, riding bicycles through Peking, with nary a car to be seen. [ASIDE: Ironic that moving towards vehicle-free cities with a cycling populace is now seen as aspirational and a sign of progress whereas, back then, it was an indicator of how backward China was]