4 ms·

That's why everyone need to learn to separate fact and opinions. Ignore the conclusions, instead look at the data. Critical thinking skills are in short supply.

That's why everyone need to learn to separate fact and opinions. Ignore the conclusions, instead look at the data. Critical thinking skills are in short supply. The news is pretty bad in that it's mostly opinions pretending to be facts/information, with occasional data sprinkled in to support their conclusions.

yazboo 6y ago
But isn't the issue here that both points of view are fact/information-based?
- brenden2 6y ago
  Yes, but what people pay attention to are the conclusions, not the facts.
  - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
    But those are both facts - less people are driving, but if you do drive you're more likely to be in an accident. Are those conclusions? Would a presentation of facts just be the data itself?
    - sokoloff 6y ago
      Are you more likely to be in an accident? Or are you more likely to be in an accident with a fatality? It seems like heavy rush-hour traffic is prone to creating a large number of accidents with a low total number of fatalities. When I drive around now, I believe the risk of accident per mile is significantly lower (city dweller used to typically packed city roads), but due to higher speeds, I can’t make the same claim about lower fatality risk.
- kungato 6y ago
  Maybe there are not 2 points of view but 1 nuanced
- Sharlin 6y ago
  Lies, damned lies, and statistics [1]. You can cherry-pick a piece of stats to support any opinion. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statist...
- pchristensen 6y ago
  “Safer” is an opinion or analysis. “There are fewer fatal car accidents overall” and “There are more Fatal accidents per mile driven.” are facts.
kryogen1c 6y ago
> look at the data. Critical thinking oh no! why are you getting downvoted?! ive been banging on about the subjective nature of "facts" on HN for a while now. perhaps a parable from the movie Charlie Wilson's War will help: A boy is given a horse on his 14th birthday. Everyone in the village says, “Oh how wonderful.” But a Zen master who lives in the village says, “We'll see.” The boy falls off the horse and breaks his foot. Everyone in the village says, “Oh how awful.” The Zen master says, “We'll see.” The village is thrown into war and all the young men have to go to war. But, because of the broken foot, the boy stays behind. Everyone says, “Oh, how wonderful.” The Zen master says, “We'll see.”
groestl 6y ago
> Ignore the conclusions, instead look at the data. Also, do not ignore the opinion, instead look for it specifically, and assume that the data has been curated to support that opinion. Then go find the gaps.
newacct583 6y ago
I'm sorry, there is no opinion in either headline. Both are correct, newsworthy and correctly presented. Here are the relevant headlines: "Stay-at-Home Rules Reduce Fatal Collisions" Fact. Not opinion. Correct. And important to know, because it's good that fewer people are dying. "Emptier US roads more lethal" Likewise a correct fact and not an opinion. And newsworthy because driving right now is more likely to get me killed, and that's something I'd like to know. And the media got it right, in the headline even. It's posters here that are trying to conflate the two and make them seem like they say opposite things when they clearly did not. So... which party is the one injecting opinion? It doesn't seem like the media to me. This seems like a bunch of HN commenters trying to spin up a controversy.
- leetcrew 6y ago
  > "Emptier US roads more lethal" > Likewise a correct fact and not an opinion. And newsworthy because driving right now is more likely to get me killed, and that's something I'd like to know. "lethal" here means more deaths per mile traveled. that might be because roads everywhere are less safe, or it might mean that a greater fraction of total miles are being driven on inherently unsafe stretches of road (with the same local fatality rates as before the crisis). fatalities include pedestrian deaths as well. maybe there is increased risk for pedestrians but not for drivers. the article doesn't say. there's certainly not enough information to say whether you personally are at greater risk driving.
  - newacct583 6y ago
    Uh... the detail you're asking for is literally in the text of the article. I still don't understand why you don't think that headline is an accurate summary. And in any case... I don't understand your criticism at all. If there are more deaths per mile traveled, then every mile driven is on average "more lethal", by definition. So if I drive to the same place I (in the sense of an average "I" across all drivers) am more likely to die. QED. Basically, you're just criticizing grammar by conflating my use of "I" with me personally and not the abstract reader I clearly intended. Do you make similar quibbles about the abstract use of "you" or "one", or the royal "we"?

yazboo 6y ago

But isn't the issue here that both points of view are fact/information-based?

brenden2 6y ago
Yes, but what people pay attention to are the conclusions, not the facts.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  But those are both facts - less people are driving, but if you do drive you're more likely to be in an accident. Are those conclusions? Would a presentation of facts just be the data itself?
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    Are you more likely to be in an accident? Or are you more likely to be in an accident with a fatality? It seems like heavy rush-hour traffic is prone to creating a large number of accidents with a low total number of fatalities. When I drive around now, I believe the risk of accident per mile is significantly lower (city dweller used to typically packed city roads), but due to higher speeds, I can’t make the same claim about lower fatality risk.
kungato 6y ago
Maybe there are not 2 points of view but 1 nuanced
Sharlin 6y ago
Lies, damned lies, and statistics [1]. You can cherry-pick a piece of stats to support any opinion. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statist...
pchristensen 6y ago
“Safer” is an opinion or analysis. “There are fewer fatal car accidents overall” and “There are more Fatal accidents per mile driven.” are facts.

kryogen1c 6y ago

> look at the data. Critical thinking oh no! why are you getting downvoted?! ive been banging on about the subjective nature of "facts" on HN for a while now. perhaps a parable from the movie Charlie Wilson's War will help: A boy is given a horse on his 14th birthday. Everyone in the village says, “Oh how wonderful.” But a Zen master who lives in the village says, “We'll see.” The boy falls off the horse and breaks his foot. Everyone in the village says, “Oh how awful.” The Zen master says, “We'll see.” The village is thrown into war and all the young men have to go to war. But, because of the broken foot, the boy stays behind. Everyone says, “Oh, how wonderful.” The Zen master says, “We'll see.”

groestl 6y ago

> Ignore the conclusions, instead look at the data. Also, do not ignore the opinion, instead look for it specifically, and assume that the data has been curated to support that opinion. Then go find the gaps.

newacct583 6y ago

I'm sorry, there is no opinion in either headline. Both are correct, newsworthy and correctly presented. Here are the relevant headlines: "Stay-at-Home Rules Reduce Fatal Collisions" Fact. Not opinion. Correct. And important to know, because it's good that fewer people are dying. "Emptier US roads more lethal" Likewise a correct fact and not an opinion. And newsworthy because driving right now is more likely to get me killed, and that's something I'd like to know. And the media got it right, in the headline even. It's posters here that are trying to conflate the two and make them seem like they say opposite things when they clearly did not. So... which party is the one injecting opinion? It doesn't seem like the media to me. This seems like a bunch of HN commenters trying to spin up a controversy.

leetcrew 6y ago
> "Emptier US roads more lethal" > Likewise a correct fact and not an opinion. And newsworthy because driving right now is more likely to get me killed, and that's something I'd like to know. "lethal" here means more deaths per mile traveled. that might be because roads everywhere are less safe, or it might mean that a greater fraction of total miles are being driven on inherently unsafe stretches of road (with the same local fatality rates as before the crisis). fatalities include pedestrian deaths as well. maybe there is increased risk for pedestrians but not for drivers. the article doesn't say. there's certainly not enough information to say whether you personally are at greater risk driving.
- newacct583 6y ago
  Uh... the detail you're asking for is literally in the text of the article. I still don't understand why you don't think that headline is an accurate summary. And in any case... I don't understand your criticism at all. If there are more deaths per mile traveled, then every mile driven is on average "more lethal", by definition. So if I drive to the same place I (in the sense of an average "I" across all drivers) am more likely to die. QED. Basically, you're just criticizing grammar by conflating my use of "I" with me personally and not the abstract reader I clearly intended. Do you make similar quibbles about the abstract use of "you" or "one", or the royal "we"?