4 ms·

If people really thought about the number of people killed and maimed in car crashes, I wonder if we'd see greater support for alternative transportation. https

If people really thought about the number of people killed and maimed in car crashes, I wonder if we'd see greater support for alternative transportation. https://jakeseliger.com/2019/12/16/maybe-cars-are-just-really-bad-but-theyre-normal-so-we-dont-pay-attention-to-how-bad/ https://jakeseliger.com/2019/12/16/maybe-cars-are-just-reall...

Invictus0 6y ago
The flip side of this would be to say that auto fatalities are fairly low and steadily decreasing, with a fatality rate of 1.25 per 100 million miles driven. For reference, that's 10% greater than the distance between the Earth and the Sun.
- zip1234 6y ago
  Cars are noisy and take up a ton of space. In cities bikes seem like a way better way to go, especially with e-bikes. They are quieter, safer, smaller, and healthier. Auto fatalities are only low compared to previous years of auto fatalities. Also, electric cars are still noisy. Tire noise at 35 mph is the same on both electric and IC cars.
  - C1sc0cat 6y ago
    For some short journeys in good weather - yes but as the rate of bike theft is massively more than car theft Many offices / train staions don't have secure of street bike parking and I aint going be parking my bike on the street even if its a cheap £400mtb let alone a >£1200 Brompton
    - flaque 6y ago
      Bike theft and lack of bike parking seem like wildly cheaper and easier to solve problems than the mass of traffic infrastructure problems needed solved for cars.
    - jschwartzi 6y ago
      Bike theft is huge because the cops don't do anything about it.
    - zip1234 6y ago
      Understandable concerns. Around me at least it costs about $7000 all in for the improvements for a single parking spot in the city. 2-bike lockers cost about $1000 and take up a fraction of the space.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  steadily decreasing I think it has been ticking up in the last few years (in the US).
  - Steltek 6y ago
    Motorist fatalities are down. Pedestrian fatalities have doubled since 2010. (I think that year is right...).
rossdavidh 6y ago
Unfortunately, I suspect support in most of the U.S. for mass transit has just taken a massive dive, since nobody wants to be in close contact with other people any more. I wonder how long that will take to wear off?
- Ericson2314 6y ago
  Yeah it's a bummer---the problem is commuting not mass transit, and even then the problem really is healthcare policy, as evidenced by denser cities elsewhere that have fared better now and in previous epidemics. My temporarily hope is to switch tactics and go more streetsblog.org focusing on pedestrian and cyclist issues. It's not a sustainable policy to exclusively focus on those, but hopefully it's an acceptable lie in the short-term. (Cars being workable is also a lie, so hey, at least not stopping lower than the enemy.)
jimmaswell 6y ago
Cars are the only practical way to go where you want, when you want, how you want. No bus schedules, complicated connections you have to double check and run full speed between (across the whole Port Authority terminal once in my case between trains), or drop off points you have to walk long distances from once you get there. Bikes are close but only work for short distances in good weather. Add personalized climate control, no strangers in your car, more comfortable seating than any tram, music, and I have no desire to seek alternatives. Only thing I'm left desiring is self-driving so I can use my phone or whatever, the only tangible benefit to transit that appeals to me. Yeah, they're a bit noisy and worse for the environment and take up space. I see that as part of the price of living in a free society.
- blahedo 6y ago
  > Cars are the only practical way to go where you want, when you want, how you want. This is more true in some areas than others. In a relatively dense city, with well-designed (and, crucially, frequent) transit systems, a whole lot of "where" and "when" you want is going to be more practical with transit, and of course cars can't help you with "how" you want if what you want is not to have to be driving. In many cities, driving my car (or renting a car, if I flew there) would have been tremendously impractical. It's certainly convenient to have a car sometimes, and there will always be some trips for which your statement is closer to true. And if you choose to live in a place (/cough/ suburbs /cough/) where anything but cars would be impractical, then yes, cars are the only practical option. But it is far, far from the absolute that you make it out to be. (PS I'm definitely not talking about commuter rail in the US here. Even the "good" lines are terrible by global mass transit standards. They are not "practical" except for a very tightly-constrained set of needs.)
  - jimmaswell 6y ago
    I have some experience with NYC transit, which is what my post was based on. Crowded, sketchy, stressful (more so than congestic traffic to me), and all the points I said before. Specifically coming from upstate to the Museum of Natural History. Train ride was nice at least but it did involve running across the PA on the way back. I've driven/been driven in NYC a few times (pre-pandemic) and it wasn't /that/ bad, but I don't think it was ever in Manhattan. Most recently was going to JFK and back from somewhere more upstate. I looked into transit options and they were seemingly expensive (might have been a wash with crazy bridge tolls down there), had a bunch of connections, and long walking periods or uber connections adding more expense. Definitely didn't sound fun to bring luggage along. NYC is supposed to be the country's shining example of transit, isn't it? I can't say it enamoured me. If I lived there I'd probably end up biking a lot.
Frost1x 6y ago
It's also predicted that if self-driving vehicles become viable and ubiquitous, you'll also see a shortage of organs since a significant amount of organ donation rely on vehicle fatalities and in theory, self driving vehicles should be safer. I'm sure its not coincidental that organ donation opt-in is closely tied with most state drivers licenses and renewals. I haven't seen an analysis but I suspect you'll also see a lot of municipal revenue streams cut down when if self-driving cars or other transports become popular. I know a lot of small towns rely on lots of interstate traffic tickets to help balance their budgets. I suspect most those violations will decrease significantly with autonomous transport. I'm not sure how many cities/towns at large are reliant on these sort of revenue streams but I presume increased taxes would need to pickup the bill.

Invictus0 6y ago

The flip side of this would be to say that auto fatalities are fairly low and steadily decreasing, with a fatality rate of 1.25 per 100 million miles driven. For reference, that's 10% greater than the distance between the Earth and the Sun.

zip1234 6y ago
Cars are noisy and take up a ton of space. In cities bikes seem like a way better way to go, especially with e-bikes. They are quieter, safer, smaller, and healthier. Auto fatalities are only low compared to previous years of auto fatalities. Also, electric cars are still noisy. Tire noise at 35 mph is the same on both electric and IC cars.
- C1sc0cat 6y ago
  For some short journeys in good weather - yes but as the rate of bike theft is massively more than car theft Many offices / train staions don't have secure of street bike parking and I aint going be parking my bike on the street even if its a cheap £400mtb let alone a >£1200 Brompton
  - flaque 6y ago
    Bike theft and lack of bike parking seem like wildly cheaper and easier to solve problems than the mass of traffic infrastructure problems needed solved for cars.
  - jschwartzi 6y ago
    Bike theft is huge because the cops don't do anything about it.
  - zip1234 6y ago
    Understandable concerns. Around me at least it costs about $7000 all in for the improvements for a single parking spot in the city. 2-bike lockers cost about $1000 and take up a fraction of the space.
tonyedgecombe 6y ago
steadily decreasing I think it has been ticking up in the last few years (in the US).
- Steltek 6y ago
  Motorist fatalities are down. Pedestrian fatalities have doubled since 2010. (I think that year is right...).

rossdavidh 6y ago

Unfortunately, I suspect support in most of the U.S. for mass transit has just taken a massive dive, since nobody wants to be in close contact with other people any more. I wonder how long that will take to wear off?

Ericson2314 6y ago
Yeah it's a bummer---the problem is commuting not mass transit, and even then the problem really is healthcare policy, as evidenced by denser cities elsewhere that have fared better now and in previous epidemics. My temporarily hope is to switch tactics and go more streetsblog.org focusing on pedestrian and cyclist issues. It's not a sustainable policy to exclusively focus on those, but hopefully it's an acceptable lie in the short-term. (Cars being workable is also a lie, so hey, at least not stopping lower than the enemy.)

jimmaswell 6y ago

Cars are the only practical way to go where you want, when you want, how you want. No bus schedules, complicated connections you have to double check and run full speed between (across the whole Port Authority terminal once in my case between trains), or drop off points you have to walk long distances from once you get there. Bikes are close but only work for short distances in good weather. Add personalized climate control, no strangers in your car, more comfortable seating than any tram, music, and I have no desire to seek alternatives. Only thing I'm left desiring is self-driving so I can use my phone or whatever, the only tangible benefit to transit that appeals to me. Yeah, they're a bit noisy and worse for the environment and take up space. I see that as part of the price of living in a free society.

blahedo 6y ago
> Cars are the only practical way to go where you want, when you want, how you want. This is more true in some areas than others. In a relatively dense city, with well-designed (and, crucially, frequent) transit systems, a whole lot of "where" and "when" you want is going to be more practical with transit, and of course cars can't help you with "how" you want if what you want is not to have to be driving. In many cities, driving my car (or renting a car, if I flew there) would have been tremendously impractical. It's certainly convenient to have a car sometimes, and there will always be some trips for which your statement is closer to true. And if you choose to live in a place (/cough/ suburbs /cough/) where anything but cars would be impractical, then yes, cars are the only practical option. But it is far, far from the absolute that you make it out to be. (PS I'm definitely not talking about commuter rail in the US here. Even the "good" lines are terrible by global mass transit standards. They are not "practical" except for a very tightly-constrained set of needs.)
- jimmaswell 6y ago
  I have some experience with NYC transit, which is what my post was based on. Crowded, sketchy, stressful (more so than congestic traffic to me), and all the points I said before. Specifically coming from upstate to the Museum of Natural History. Train ride was nice at least but it did involve running across the PA on the way back. I've driven/been driven in NYC a few times (pre-pandemic) and it wasn't /that/ bad, but I don't think it was ever in Manhattan. Most recently was going to JFK and back from somewhere more upstate. I looked into transit options and they were seemingly expensive (might have been a wash with crazy bridge tolls down there), had a bunch of connections, and long walking periods or uber connections adding more expense. Definitely didn't sound fun to bring luggage along. NYC is supposed to be the country's shining example of transit, isn't it? I can't say it enamoured me. If I lived there I'd probably end up biking a lot.

Frost1x 6y ago

It's also predicted that if self-driving vehicles become viable and ubiquitous, you'll also see a shortage of organs since a significant amount of organ donation rely on vehicle fatalities and in theory, self driving vehicles should be safer. I'm sure its not coincidental that organ donation opt-in is closely tied with most state drivers licenses and renewals. I haven't seen an analysis but I suspect you'll also see a lot of municipal revenue streams cut down when if self-driving cars or other transports become popular. I know a lot of small towns rely on lots of interstate traffic tickets to help balance their budgets. I suspect most those violations will decrease significantly with autonomous transport. I'm not sure how many cities/towns at large are reliant on these sort of revenue streams but I presume increased taxes would need to pickup the bill.