5 ms·

I have a little over half a million karma, about 200k from posting links. I think it's incorrect to suggest that the "vast majority" of content is manipulated.

I have a little over half a million karma, about 200k from posting links. I think it's incorrect to suggest that the "vast majority" of content is manipulated. You see the same names because they understand the game of karmawhoring. If you have one link which can fit in multiple subreddits and your goal is to get as many points as possible, you post it to all the relevant subreddits, repeat for every other link you have. It's a numbers game. More posts means it's more likely for one to stick, and you get better at it with time. You eventually pick up on what times of day are most effective or which subreddits get more consistent results, things consumers of the content wouldn't ever know, so they try to do the same and their post flops and they say that clearly it's manipulation. There is some manipulation, especially if you consider mods who remove posts at their discretion, but it's far from a "vast majority." I do have concerns related to some political subreddits, where there is evidence of bad actors attempting to influence the 2020 election. A subreddit (whose name escapes me) just had all of its moderators removed because it ended up being one person running three or four dozen alternate accounts.

elliekelly 6y ago
> I think it's incorrect to suggest that the "vast majority" of content is manipulated. You see the same names because they understand the game of karmawhoring. What is the distinction between content manipulation and the game of karmawhoring? They seem more or less the same to me. I think I would consider SEO a form of content manipulation, for example.
- nsilvestri 6y ago
  I'm distinguishing it between the "intended" way of using the site by making posts and then the community organically votes on it, and some unintended "manipulated" way where content is artificially voted upon or otherwise given an advantage over other posts.
  - elliekelly 6y ago
    And when someone posts OC, a photo, for example, to a small subreddit or at a low-trafficked time of day and a "karmawhore" screenshots the photo and posts it to several highly trafficked subreddits would you consider those upvotes organic or manipulated? It's my understanding that this is a common tactic used by people who are "karma farming" on an account. I can certainly understand how the karmawhore feels the upvotes are organic but I can also see how the owner of the original content would very much consider those upvotes manipulated. And when a karmawhore lifts content and uses a title that insinuates it's their content ("My Dog Spike Doing Funny Thing"), I think the fuzzy line between organic and manipulated feels a little less fuzzy and lot more manipulated. Not just for the content owner, but for the content consumers as well. I think there's some expectation, at least some of the time, that an "organic" OP will interact with commenters and provide more detail in response to questions and it can be disappointing when you come across an interesting post only to realize that isn't the case because OP is just looking to maximize eyeballs & upvotes.
    - nsilvestri 6y ago
      The _votes_ aren't manipulated though. The content is exactly the same even if the person "stole" it. It's immoral and scummy, certainly, but I wouldn't consider it vote manipulation by my definition.
      - Quekid5 6y ago
        Depending on specifics it could also be outright copyright infringement. (Just reusing a link wouldn't be, but e.g. reuploading a video would be.)
      - elliekelly 6y ago
        I wouldn't call all of the votes on a stolen post called "My Dog Spike" organic though either. Users have been manipulated in some, perhaps small, way because they've upvoted a post they otherwise might not have. How many of those people would have upvoted the same post titled "Some Random Guy's Dog Spike"? I suspect fewer or karmawhores wouldn't frequently use that tactic. > I wouldn't consider it vote manipulation by my definition. I suppose that's kind of my point. Your definition and perspective come from your experience on reddit as someone who posts that way. But there are other people who don't play the game of karmawhoring who might see things differently. It seems to me it's a very blurry line that is difficult to define and largely a matter of perspective. The people who have mastered the system feel it's a matter of merit while the rest feel its a matter a manipulation. Reality is probably somewhere in the middle.
snazz 6y ago
Is the value of Reddit karma purely psychological? I know that you can sell accounts with high point values for significant sums of money, but I'm confused what the actual value is aside from the little dopamine rush you get when something is upvoted.
- nsilvestri 6y ago
  Purely psychological. The most I've gotten out of it is that I've been active in a community for people with 100k+ karma for over 6 years, now, so I have some digital social ties that I'm grateful for.
- emerongi 6y ago
  More entrepreneurial Redditors can use karma to signal that they know how to get posts to the front page of Reddit. Marketing companies might hire them to do promotions. At least this is how it was years ago. Maybe marketing companies have this all automated anyway already and don't need people like that anymore.
  - nsilvestri 6y ago
    I've never been approached about marketing once, but I am not prolific like other users. I imagine you have to be in the top 100 or 1000 users in order to get those sorts of offers. The closest I've experienced was when I organically made a post on the speedcubing subreddit asking for opinions a new cube by a fairly unknown company and I was contacted by an employee of the company thanking me for the post and offering to give me one for free.
- EamonnMR 6y ago
  Do not underestimate the value people will place on a little dopamine rush.
sasasassy 6y ago
I have never used reddit, and just know that "karma" is a type of points system like here on HN. Could you explain why you personally are interested in accumulating karma by "karmawhoring"? I ignore the points system in HN too, but I think it's main function is to ban bad actors. So I don't understand on the other hand why someone would accumulate points unless they mean to later spend them on "bad actions".
- nsilvestri 6y ago
  It's just a game to try and get a higher score. Like HN points, karma doesn't actually get you any special benefits.
  - _curious_ 6y ago
    Prettysure there is some functionality benefits tied to karma here on HN...
    - snazz 6y ago
      Beyond reaching the threshold to be able to downvote comments, there is no significant functionality that you unlock as your karma increases.
    - IntelMiner 6y ago
      I believe certain site features are gated off to prevent manipulation such as up/downvoting until users reach X points
- crankylinuxuser 6y ago
  Karma is a social proof for being able to astroturf and control the narrative. And depending on what group you're a mod in, can provide a great deal of influence and control.
- Gene_Parmesan 6y ago
  I'm not saying that everyone who seeks high karma scores is like this, but astroturfing PR/advertising firms will pay real hard cash for accounts with an established history of trust from the community. I've read many stories from people who have gotten private messages from such places with an offer to buy their account. Or perhaps, like gallowboob, you want to parlay it into an actual social media gig (UNILAD for him). I do believe for most people though it's just a sort of fame-seeking thing, for whatever reddit 'fame' is worth.

elliekelly 6y ago

> I think it's incorrect to suggest that the "vast majority" of content is manipulated. You see the same names because they understand the game of karmawhoring. What is the distinction between content manipulation and the game of karmawhoring? They seem more or less the same to me. I think I would consider SEO a form of content manipulation, for example.

nsilvestri 6y ago
I'm distinguishing it between the "intended" way of using the site by making posts and then the community organically votes on it, and some unintended "manipulated" way where content is artificially voted upon or otherwise given an advantage over other posts.
- elliekelly 6y ago
  And when someone posts OC, a photo, for example, to a small subreddit or at a low-trafficked time of day and a "karmawhore" screenshots the photo and posts it to several highly trafficked subreddits would you consider those upvotes organic or manipulated? It's my understanding that this is a common tactic used by people who are "karma farming" on an account. I can certainly understand how the karmawhore feels the upvotes are organic but I can also see how the owner of the original content would very much consider those upvotes manipulated. And when a karmawhore lifts content and uses a title that insinuates it's their content ("My Dog Spike Doing Funny Thing"), I think the fuzzy line between organic and manipulated feels a little less fuzzy and lot more manipulated. Not just for the content owner, but for the content consumers as well. I think there's some expectation, at least some of the time, that an "organic" OP will interact with commenters and provide more detail in response to questions and it can be disappointing when you come across an interesting post only to realize that isn't the case because OP is just looking to maximize eyeballs & upvotes.
  - nsilvestri 6y ago
    The _votes_ aren't manipulated though. The content is exactly the same even if the person "stole" it. It's immoral and scummy, certainly, but I wouldn't consider it vote manipulation by my definition.
    - Quekid5 6y ago
      Depending on specifics it could also be outright copyright infringement. (Just reusing a link wouldn't be, but e.g. reuploading a video would be.)
    - elliekelly 6y ago
      I wouldn't call all of the votes on a stolen post called "My Dog Spike" organic though either. Users have been manipulated in some, perhaps small, way because they've upvoted a post they otherwise might not have. How many of those people would have upvoted the same post titled "Some Random Guy's Dog Spike"? I suspect fewer or karmawhores wouldn't frequently use that tactic. > I wouldn't consider it vote manipulation by my definition. I suppose that's kind of my point. Your definition and perspective come from your experience on reddit as someone who posts that way. But there are other people who don't play the game of karmawhoring who might see things differently. It seems to me it's a very blurry line that is difficult to define and largely a matter of perspective. The people who have mastered the system feel it's a matter of merit while the rest feel its a matter a manipulation. Reality is probably somewhere in the middle.

snazz 6y ago

Is the value of Reddit karma purely psychological? I know that you can sell accounts with high point values for significant sums of money, but I'm confused what the actual value is aside from the little dopamine rush you get when something is upvoted.

nsilvestri 6y ago
Purely psychological. The most I've gotten out of it is that I've been active in a community for people with 100k+ karma for over 6 years, now, so I have some digital social ties that I'm grateful for.
emerongi 6y ago
More entrepreneurial Redditors can use karma to signal that they know how to get posts to the front page of Reddit. Marketing companies might hire them to do promotions. At least this is how it was years ago. Maybe marketing companies have this all automated anyway already and don't need people like that anymore.
- nsilvestri 6y ago
  I've never been approached about marketing once, but I am not prolific like other users. I imagine you have to be in the top 100 or 1000 users in order to get those sorts of offers. The closest I've experienced was when I organically made a post on the speedcubing subreddit asking for opinions a new cube by a fairly unknown company and I was contacted by an employee of the company thanking me for the post and offering to give me one for free.
EamonnMR 6y ago
Do not underestimate the value people will place on a little dopamine rush.

sasasassy 6y ago

I have never used reddit, and just know that "karma" is a type of points system like here on HN. Could you explain why you personally are interested in accumulating karma by "karmawhoring"? I ignore the points system in HN too, but I think it's main function is to ban bad actors. So I don't understand on the other hand why someone would accumulate points unless they mean to later spend them on "bad actions".

nsilvestri 6y ago
It's just a game to try and get a higher score. Like HN points, karma doesn't actually get you any special benefits.
- _curious_ 6y ago
  Prettysure there is some functionality benefits tied to karma here on HN...
  - snazz 6y ago
    Beyond reaching the threshold to be able to downvote comments, there is no significant functionality that you unlock as your karma increases.
  - IntelMiner 6y ago
    I believe certain site features are gated off to prevent manipulation such as up/downvoting until users reach X points
crankylinuxuser 6y ago
Karma is a social proof for being able to astroturf and control the narrative. And depending on what group you're a mod in, can provide a great deal of influence and control.
Gene_Parmesan 6y ago
I'm not saying that everyone who seeks high karma scores is like this, but astroturfing PR/advertising firms will pay real hard cash for accounts with an established history of trust from the community. I've read many stories from people who have gotten private messages from such places with an offer to buy their account. Or perhaps, like gallowboob, you want to parlay it into an actual social media gig (UNILAD for him). I do believe for most people though it's just a sort of fame-seeking thing, for whatever reddit 'fame' is worth.