4 ms·

What is the actual case for Basic Income? I hear that it 'solves' the problem of automation ... except that it doesn't actually solve it AT ALL. If automation w

What is the actual case for Basic Income? I hear that it 'solves' the problem of automation ... except that it doesn't actually solve it AT ALL. If automation will lead to high unemployment, basic income will do nothing for that. It will send cash to people who aren't working so they can provide for basic necessities, but our welfare state already does that. And we know that segments of society that are wholly dependent on government suffer despair, drug/alcohol abuse and crime - UBI does nothing to solve that either. And of course, UBI in rich nations does nothing for the third world, which will be hit HARDER by automation and doesn't have the wealth to give every citizen cash. There are also major structural ambiguities with Basic Income that are glossed over by supporters, namely the libertarian-types think that it will replace the welfare state, and progressives/leftists AT BEST think that it will complement the welfare state (i.e. that segment will NOT allow UBI to replace any of their cherished social programs). So if UBI has any chance of broad support, it will not save a dime, but rather add a tremendous amount to government spending. In the end, UBI solves nothings and comes with its own set of baggage.

myvoiceismypass 6y ago
"And we know that segments of society that are wholly dependent on government suffer despair, drug/alcohol abuse and crime." Citations please.
sokoloff 6y ago
> segments of society that are wholly dependent on government suffer despair, drug/alcohol abuse and crime Is there a causal relationship in the direction implied by this sentence? There's a correlation among unemployment, drug/alcohol abuse, depression, crime, homelessness, suicide, and probably several other negative things in society. It's hard to tease out the causal linkages, meaning that if something like UBI allows some people to quit their jobs, it's not clear that that quitting would have the same correlation to depression/abuse/suicide as today's sources of joblessness do.
ImprobableTruth 6y ago
UBI with a progressive tax is just welfare without the bureaucratic overhead. Even in countries where there already is a strong welfare state, I'd bet that UBI would be an improvement due to reducing the stress of applying for unemployment benefits.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  >UBI with a progressive tax is just welfare without the bureaucratic overhead. Who says UBI replaces a single welfare program? Any support that UBI gets from the left is under the assumption that it is an ADD-ON to the existing welfare state. The people employed in the administration of the welfare programs will also fight tooth-and-nail from losing their jobs. So UBI is just another cost on top the mountain of costs.
JoeSmithson 6y ago
For one, it removes pathological situations where people are disincentivised to work because it would mean they lose means-tested support. The great unknown is whether it also disincentivises work itself in a way that would be a negative overall. The general idea is that it removes the threat of poverty, which potentially allows people to make more rational decisions, and negates the need for cruder solutions like minimum wage, regulations, unions etc.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  >it removes pathological situations where people are disincentivised to work because it would mean they lose means-tested support. That's a problem with how welfare is structured, that can be fixed with changing welfare. >The great unknown is whether it also disincentivises work itself in a way that would be a negative overall Why would you think it wouldn't? >which potentially allows people to make more rational decisions, and negates the need for cruder solutions like minimum wage, regulations, unions etc If you think you can get leftist/progressive support for UBI by cutting ANY social program, you are in for quite an awakening. Welfare state employes hundreds of thousands of people, they will not support UBI either. The libertarian view of UBI replacing social programs has ZERO chance of passing. So what's left is UBI being just another expense of top of the huge welfare state costs.
  - JoeSmithson 6y ago
    > "That's a problem with how welfare is structured, that can be fixed with changing welfare." That's what UBI is...? UBI is changing welfare to not be means-tested. > "Why would you think it wouldn't?" There are many reasons to think it wouldn't. For example, lots of people work two jobs. People work full time when they could work part time. Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos etc all still work. The vast majority of people in a modern economy work more than they need to in order to earn what a UBI would pay. The rest of your post is not relevant to the question you originally asked ("What is the actual case for Basic Income?")
    - klmadfejno 6y ago
bslyke 6y ago
Our welfare state has gaps where non-workers, who should be supported by welfare, are still getting screwed. I thought this paper on the subject was interesting: https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2020/01/20/how-to-fix-our-existing-welfare-state/ https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2020/01/20/how-to-fix-o... Seems like UBI fills in the gaps in a sloppy easy way, while also giving money to workers, who don't truly 'need' the welfare. It frees them from the chains of being stuck at their job, but universal healthcare would probably do a much better job at that for the worst-stuck people (e.g. hate my job but I have a chronic illness with monthly costs > a potential UBI). Maybe give welfare a cool silicon valley style name instead of the one with baggage and Jack Dorsey will get on-board.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  Right, so you're in the second camp where UBI adds extra costs to the existing welfare state. So there are no savings. > It frees them from the chains of being stuck at their job Yes. It would be nice to get nice things and not worry about working. You can't get away from the underlying reality that jobs aren't fun but they still need to be done. Also, we know that populations that are wholly supported by government welfare with no incentive to work suffer from drug/alcohol abuse and crime.
LAMike 6y ago
"What is the actual case for Basic Income?" Ending homelessness and providing a bigger safety net for the citizens of the richest country on earth, for starters.

myvoiceismypass 6y ago

"And we know that segments of society that are wholly dependent on government suffer despair, drug/alcohol abuse and crime." Citations please.

sokoloff 6y ago

> segments of society that are wholly dependent on government suffer despair, drug/alcohol abuse and crime Is there a causal relationship in the direction implied by this sentence? There's a correlation among unemployment, drug/alcohol abuse, depression, crime, homelessness, suicide, and probably several other negative things in society. It's hard to tease out the causal linkages, meaning that if something like UBI allows some people to quit their jobs, it's not clear that that quitting would have the same correlation to depression/abuse/suicide as today's sources of joblessness do.

ImprobableTruth 6y ago

UBI with a progressive tax is just welfare without the bureaucratic overhead. Even in countries where there already is a strong welfare state, I'd bet that UBI would be an improvement due to reducing the stress of applying for unemployment benefits.

macspoofing 6y ago
>UBI with a progressive tax is just welfare without the bureaucratic overhead. Who says UBI replaces a single welfare program? Any support that UBI gets from the left is under the assumption that it is an ADD-ON to the existing welfare state. The people employed in the administration of the welfare programs will also fight tooth-and-nail from losing their jobs. So UBI is just another cost on top the mountain of costs.

JoeSmithson 6y ago

For one, it removes pathological situations where people are disincentivised to work because it would mean they lose means-tested support. The great unknown is whether it also disincentivises work itself in a way that would be a negative overall. The general idea is that it removes the threat of poverty, which potentially allows people to make more rational decisions, and negates the need for cruder solutions like minimum wage, regulations, unions etc.

macspoofing 6y ago
>it removes pathological situations where people are disincentivised to work because it would mean they lose means-tested support. That's a problem with how welfare is structured, that can be fixed with changing welfare. >The great unknown is whether it also disincentivises work itself in a way that would be a negative overall Why would you think it wouldn't? >which potentially allows people to make more rational decisions, and negates the need for cruder solutions like minimum wage, regulations, unions etc If you think you can get leftist/progressive support for UBI by cutting ANY social program, you are in for quite an awakening. Welfare state employes hundreds of thousands of people, they will not support UBI either. The libertarian view of UBI replacing social programs has ZERO chance of passing. So what's left is UBI being just another expense of top of the huge welfare state costs.
- JoeSmithson 6y ago
  > "That's a problem with how welfare is structured, that can be fixed with changing welfare." That's what UBI is...? UBI is changing welfare to not be means-tested. > "Why would you think it wouldn't?" There are many reasons to think it wouldn't. For example, lots of people work two jobs. People work full time when they could work part time. Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos etc all still work. The vast majority of people in a modern economy work more than they need to in order to earn what a UBI would pay. The rest of your post is not relevant to the question you originally asked ("What is the actual case for Basic Income?")
  - klmadfejno 6y ago

bslyke 6y ago

Our welfare state has gaps where non-workers, who should be supported by welfare, are still getting screwed. I thought this paper on the subject was interesting: https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2020/01/20/how-to-fix-our-existing-welfare-state/ https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2020/01/20/how-to-fix-o... Seems like UBI fills in the gaps in a sloppy easy way, while also giving money to workers, who don't truly 'need' the welfare. It frees them from the chains of being stuck at their job, but universal healthcare would probably do a much better job at that for the worst-stuck people (e.g. hate my job but I have a chronic illness with monthly costs > a potential UBI). Maybe give welfare a cool silicon valley style name instead of the one with baggage and Jack Dorsey will get on-board.

macspoofing 6y ago
Right, so you're in the second camp where UBI adds extra costs to the existing welfare state. So there are no savings. > It frees them from the chains of being stuck at their job Yes. It would be nice to get nice things and not worry about working. You can't get away from the underlying reality that jobs aren't fun but they still need to be done. Also, we know that populations that are wholly supported by government welfare with no incentive to work suffer from drug/alcohol abuse and crime.

LAMike 6y ago

"What is the actual case for Basic Income?" Ending homelessness and providing a bigger safety net for the citizens of the richest country on earth, for starters.