4 ms·

This might seem like a limitation. But you can provide a base system with a toolchain & xorg with known dependencies and a limited set of packages (like a BSD b

by pampa 6y ago

This might seem like a limitation. But you can provide a base system with a toolchain & xorg with known dependencies and a limited set of packages (like a BSD base system). Then for every big and complex app clone that base system and build the app in a chroot/sandbox or container. That way you get the app and dont pollute the base system and uninstalling is just rm -rf On every distro uninstalling packages never really reverts the system to its previous state, always leaves some junk behind.

stargaz3r 6y ago
>On every distro uninstalling packages never really reverts the system to its previous state, always leaves some junk behind. That's not true at all. See Nix package manager (and NixOS the distro).
- pampa 6y ago
  nix is more like installing every package in its own chroot, with a few optimizations. not your starnard linux package manager
  - danieldk 6y ago
    That's too much of a simplification. In NixOS you still have global configuration files, such as /etc/fstab. However, they are symlinks to Nix store paths that are associated with the current generation. $ realpath /etc/fstab /nix/store/06k708q78zxw8922rrrc8mmp5gbin4am-etc-fstab However, NixOS installations can also end up accumulating configuration and state files that stick around when they are not defined declaratively. E.g. if you enable ssh, host keys are generated in /etc/ssh. Even if you disable ssh, these files will stick around. You can avoid such accidental state [1], since NixOS will happily boot from a filesystem with just /boot and /nix and reconstruct the rest upon system activation. But it is quite a bit of work, since you need to manually specify what state you want to preserve (e.g. SSH host key files). Also, it currently does not work nicely with some systemd units that barf out if you make /var/run entries symlinks. [1] https://grahamc.com/blog/erase-your-darlings https://grahamc.com/blog/erase-your-darlings
    - edraferi 6y ago
      I’m just getting started with Nix, with the explicit goal of making my entire system defined in a private , remote git repo. I want to be able to rapidly re-provision my entire user environment on a new machine, including applications, preferences, etc. For the moment I’m doing this on MacOS with the nix package manager. I’ll eventually move to NixOS. I tried to run NixOS in VirtualBox, but couldn’t get screen resizing to work despite using the official ISO which is supposed to have the appropriate extensions installed. My current hurdle is exactly the topic of this thread: non-binary configs. For example, what am I supposed to do with .zprofile? I think I’m supposed to write a custom Nix derivation for ZSH that includes any and all customizations. I’m concerned that might cause problems with MacOS system ZSH. I can probably fix that with a custom login shell? Anyway it’s fun, but complicated and diversely documented. Gonna take a while to sort it all out.
      - danieldk 6y ago
        My current hurdle is exactly the topic of this thread: non-binary configs. For example, what am I supposed to do with .zprofile? I think I’m supposed to write a custom Nix derivation for ZSH that includes any and all customizations. I’m concerned that might cause problems with MacOS system ZSH. I can probably fix that with a custom login shell? I use both NixOS and macOS. You can take two routes: 1. you can continue using Apple's /bin/zsh and just use a .zprofile generated using Nix (e.g. home-manager). Generally, the differences between zsh versions are not that large and it just works. This is what I have been doing with my Mac. 2. You could change your shell, either system-wide, or just for Terminal.app to ~/.nix-profile/bin/zsh. I’ll eventually move to NixOS. I tried to run NixOS in VirtualBox, but couldn’t get screen resizing to work despite using the official ISO which is supposed to have the appropriate extensions installed. If you have some leftover hardware, try it! NixOS is a different experience altogether and cannot be paralleled by Nix on macOS or a Linux distribution. Being able to declaratively define your whole system is insanely cool and powerful. Fully reproducible machines. Also, you can try out stuff without any harm. Just switch back to the previous working generation (or try the configuration in a VM with nixos-rebuild build-vm) if you are not happy.
      - chriswarbo 6y ago
- danieldk 6y ago
  By and large yes. However, even on NixOS there can be various leftovers in the form of state files in /var and configuration files in /etc (outside the majority, which are managed through Nix). Unless you nuke most of the root filesystem on every boot [1]. [1] https://grahamc.com/blog/erase-your-darlings https://grahamc.com/blog/erase-your-darlings
nerdponx 6y ago
Apt autoremove seems to do a pretty decent job.
- CameronNemo 6y ago
  especially when you pass --purge
t0astbread 6y ago
Isn't this basically what Docker is for?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dicknuckle 6y ago
  Yes in that it's container tech, but for servers. Snap is the equivalent for desktop. Both have their merits.
throwaway023421 6y ago
> On every distro uninstalling packages never really reverts the system to its previous state, always leaves some junk behind. Not at all. Apt has been able to remove everything for the last 20 years.
- chmod775 6y ago
  > Not at all. Apt has been able to remove everything for the last 20 years. Not really. It can remove configuration files etc. it knows about, but it can't know about files later created by the application itself.
  - nerdponx 6y ago
    I'd say that's either 1) outside the scope of the package manager, or 2) mostly-solvable as long as your package manager allows you to specify "extra files created by the application that I do not install but I will want to uninstall." That's also not what's being asked for here. The basic request is this: track which packages were manually vs automatically installed, and give the user the ability to remove automatically-installed orphans whose manually-installed reverse-dependencies are no longer installed. This is what APT does and it works fine 99% of the time.
  - flukus 6y ago
    Isn't that a feature? Should my settings be cleared if I uninstall a program and reinstall it later? Should all my libre office documents disappear when I uninstall libre office?

by pampa 6y ago

stargaz3r 6y ago

>On every distro uninstalling packages never really reverts the system to its previous state, always leaves some junk behind. That's not true at all. See Nix package manager (and NixOS the distro).

pampa 6y ago
nix is more like installing every package in its own chroot, with a few optimizations. not your starnard linux package manager
- danieldk 6y ago
  That's too much of a simplification. In NixOS you still have global configuration files, such as /etc/fstab. However, they are symlinks to Nix store paths that are associated with the current generation. $ realpath /etc/fstab /nix/store/06k708q78zxw8922rrrc8mmp5gbin4am-etc-fstab However, NixOS installations can also end up accumulating configuration and state files that stick around when they are not defined declaratively. E.g. if you enable ssh, host keys are generated in /etc/ssh. Even if you disable ssh, these files will stick around. You can avoid such accidental state [1], since NixOS will happily boot from a filesystem with just /boot and /nix and reconstruct the rest upon system activation. But it is quite a bit of work, since you need to manually specify what state you want to preserve (e.g. SSH host key files). Also, it currently does not work nicely with some systemd units that barf out if you make /var/run entries symlinks. [1] https://grahamc.com/blog/erase-your-darlings https://grahamc.com/blog/erase-your-darlings
  - edraferi 6y ago
    I’m just getting started with Nix, with the explicit goal of making my entire system defined in a private , remote git repo. I want to be able to rapidly re-provision my entire user environment on a new machine, including applications, preferences, etc. For the moment I’m doing this on MacOS with the nix package manager. I’ll eventually move to NixOS. I tried to run NixOS in VirtualBox, but couldn’t get screen resizing to work despite using the official ISO which is supposed to have the appropriate extensions installed. My current hurdle is exactly the topic of this thread: non-binary configs. For example, what am I supposed to do with .zprofile? I think I’m supposed to write a custom Nix derivation for ZSH that includes any and all customizations. I’m concerned that might cause problems with MacOS system ZSH. I can probably fix that with a custom login shell? Anyway it’s fun, but complicated and diversely documented. Gonna take a while to sort it all out.
    - danieldk 6y ago
      My current hurdle is exactly the topic of this thread: non-binary configs. For example, what am I supposed to do with .zprofile? I think I’m supposed to write a custom Nix derivation for ZSH that includes any and all customizations. I’m concerned that might cause problems with MacOS system ZSH. I can probably fix that with a custom login shell? I use both NixOS and macOS. You can take two routes: 1. you can continue using Apple's /bin/zsh and just use a .zprofile generated using Nix (e.g. home-manager). Generally, the differences between zsh versions are not that large and it just works. This is what I have been doing with my Mac. 2. You could change your shell, either system-wide, or just for Terminal.app to ~/.nix-profile/bin/zsh. I’ll eventually move to NixOS. I tried to run NixOS in VirtualBox, but couldn’t get screen resizing to work despite using the official ISO which is supposed to have the appropriate extensions installed. If you have some leftover hardware, try it! NixOS is a different experience altogether and cannot be paralleled by Nix on macOS or a Linux distribution. Being able to declaratively define your whole system is insanely cool and powerful. Fully reproducible machines. Also, you can try out stuff without any harm. Just switch back to the previous working generation (or try the configuration in a VM with nixos-rebuild build-vm) if you are not happy.
    - chriswarbo 6y ago
danieldk 6y ago
By and large yes. However, even on NixOS there can be various leftovers in the form of state files in /var and configuration files in /etc (outside the majority, which are managed through Nix). Unless you nuke most of the root filesystem on every boot [1]. [1] https://grahamc.com/blog/erase-your-darlings https://grahamc.com/blog/erase-your-darlings

nerdponx 6y ago

Apt autoremove seems to do a pretty decent job.

CameronNemo 6y ago
especially when you pass --purge

t0astbread 6y ago

Isn't this basically what Docker is for?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dicknuckle 6y ago
Yes in that it's container tech, but for servers. Snap is the equivalent for desktop. Both have their merits.

throwaway023421 6y ago

> On every distro uninstalling packages never really reverts the system to its previous state, always leaves some junk behind. Not at all. Apt has been able to remove everything for the last 20 years.

chmod775 6y ago
> Not at all. Apt has been able to remove everything for the last 20 years. Not really. It can remove configuration files etc. it knows about, but it can't know about files later created by the application itself.
- nerdponx 6y ago
  I'd say that's either 1) outside the scope of the package manager, or 2) mostly-solvable as long as your package manager allows you to specify "extra files created by the application that I do not install but I will want to uninstall." That's also not what's being asked for here. The basic request is this: track which packages were manually vs automatically installed, and give the user the ability to remove automatically-installed orphans whose manually-installed reverse-dependencies are no longer installed. This is what APT does and it works fine 99% of the time.
- flukus 6y ago
  Isn't that a feature? Should my settings be cleared if I uninstall a program and reinstall it later? Should all my libre office documents disappear when I uninstall libre office?