4 ms·

If you view 7.5 billion humans as being too many people, what are your views on the 70 billion farm animals we have?

trhway 6y ago
isn't the 70B of farm animals just a part of the "7.5B humans" problem? Anyway, i think that it is a crying shame that we're still farming animals instead of growing artificial meat. Once we finally have artificial meat and thus stop killing sentient beings, i think that would result in a great leap in our conscience, empathy, etc. - it will unleash a great deal of human mental development with natural results in social and economic development.
- seanwilson 6y ago
  We're consuming much more than we used to: https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production "The world now produces more than four times the quantity of meat as it did fifty years ago" "The average person in the world consumed around 43 kilograms of meat in 2014. This ranges from over 100kg in the US and Australia to only 5kg in India." "Meat consumption increases as the world is getting richer." When the earth has finite resources, why not reduce the amount of resources used per person before talking about population control? Even with less people, you have to draw a limit somewhere on resource usage. > Anyway, i think that it is a crying shame that we're still farming animals instead of growing artificial meat. Once we finally have artificial meat and thus stop killing sentient beings, i think that would result in a great leap in our conscience, empathy, etc. - it will unleash a great deal of human mental development with natural results in social and economic development. Are there any realistic timelines on when lab grown meat will be available and affordable? How about lab grown steaks, whole ducks and whole salmon? At what stage do you think people who won't switch to alternatives now would switch?
  - AgentOrange1234 6y ago
    I suspect the alternatives will never be compelling to the masses (in, say, the US). To move the dial here, the price needs to reflect the cost.
    - seanwilson 6y ago
      > To move the dial here, the price needs to reflect the cost. If meat was priced at its true cost now and existing alternatives were fairly priced, would there be any need to wait for lab grown alternatives? Wouldn't lab grown alternatives fail to make an impact when they arrive if meat was still heavily subsidised?
  - icebraining 6y ago
    > When the earth has finite resources, why not reduce the amount of resources used per person before talking about population control? Because there's no dependency here, we can talk about both at the same time.
- ohyeshedid 6y ago
  Every time I see discussions like this I never see thoughts on what to do with all those animals. What do you do with the 70B animals we're no longer consuming?
  - trhway 6y ago
    >Every time I see discussions like this I never see thoughts on what to do with all those animals. [until the aliens bring tomorrow the mass production lines of cheap lab meat] Because of naturally gradual process of lab meat quality increase and price decrease there will be no point in time when suddenly "we have 70B animals we're no longer consuming "
    - ohyeshedid 6y ago
      >Once we finally have artificial meat and thus stop killing sentient beings... But that's literally in your scenario. If you don't have an answer, that's fine, because all of this is idealism. I just never see any conversation pertaining to what we do with all the animals. It seems like it comes down to a substantial culling, as letting them loose would be disastrous for a few obvious reasons.
      - trhway 6y ago
        probably something with my English - i described target state, not the procedure to reach it.
        ohyeshedid 6y ago
        First: Your English is perfectly fine. As someone that speaks English as a first language; I greatly respect and appreciate you even trying. That's an admirable trait, friend; don't ever feel bad, or especially let someone else make you feel bad for trying to communicate. It's the most human thing there is. Second: That's kind of my perspective. Ideas are cheap and easy. Idealism paints the perfect outcome, without the really hard parts of making it happen, or the incredibly complicated network of systems that would be effected by trying to reach the target. These are huge problems; entrenchment is incentivized and reinforced on many levels. We often don't solve problems, we treat symptoms, because it's easier than doing what needs to be done to solve the problems.

isn't the 70B of farm animals just a part of the "7.5B humans" problem? Anyway, i think that it is a crying shame that we're still farming animals instead of growing artificial meat. Once we finally have artificial meat and thus stop killing sentient beings, i think that would result in a great leap in our conscience, empathy, etc. - it will unleash a great deal of human mental development with natural results in social and economic development.

seanwilson 6y ago
We're consuming much more than we used to: https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production "The world now produces more than four times the quantity of meat as it did fifty years ago" "The average person in the world consumed around 43 kilograms of meat in 2014. This ranges from over 100kg in the US and Australia to only 5kg in India." "Meat consumption increases as the world is getting richer." When the earth has finite resources, why not reduce the amount of resources used per person before talking about population control? Even with less people, you have to draw a limit somewhere on resource usage. > Anyway, i think that it is a crying shame that we're still farming animals instead of growing artificial meat. Once we finally have artificial meat and thus stop killing sentient beings, i think that would result in a great leap in our conscience, empathy, etc. - it will unleash a great deal of human mental development with natural results in social and economic development. Are there any realistic timelines on when lab grown meat will be available and affordable? How about lab grown steaks, whole ducks and whole salmon? At what stage do you think people who won't switch to alternatives now would switch?
- AgentOrange1234 6y ago
  I suspect the alternatives will never be compelling to the masses (in, say, the US). To move the dial here, the price needs to reflect the cost.
  - seanwilson 6y ago
    > To move the dial here, the price needs to reflect the cost. If meat was priced at its true cost now and existing alternatives were fairly priced, would there be any need to wait for lab grown alternatives? Wouldn't lab grown alternatives fail to make an impact when they arrive if meat was still heavily subsidised?
- icebraining 6y ago
  > When the earth has finite resources, why not reduce the amount of resources used per person before talking about population control? Because there's no dependency here, we can talk about both at the same time.
ohyeshedid 6y ago
Every time I see discussions like this I never see thoughts on what to do with all those animals. What do you do with the 70B animals we're no longer consuming?
- trhway 6y ago
  >Every time I see discussions like this I never see thoughts on what to do with all those animals. [until the aliens bring tomorrow the mass production lines of cheap lab meat] Because of naturally gradual process of lab meat quality increase and price decrease there will be no point in time when suddenly "we have 70B animals we're no longer consuming "
  - ohyeshedid 6y ago
    >Once we finally have artificial meat and thus stop killing sentient beings... But that's literally in your scenario. If you don't have an answer, that's fine, because all of this is idealism. I just never see any conversation pertaining to what we do with all the animals. It seems like it comes down to a substantial culling, as letting them loose would be disastrous for a few obvious reasons.
    - trhway 6y ago
      probably something with my English - i described target state, not the procedure to reach it.
      - ohyeshedid 6y ago
        First: Your English is perfectly fine. As someone that speaks English as a first language; I greatly respect and appreciate you even trying. That's an admirable trait, friend; don't ever feel bad, or especially let someone else make you feel bad for trying to communicate. It's the most human thing there is. Second: That's kind of my perspective. Ideas are cheap and easy. Idealism paints the perfect outcome, without the really hard parts of making it happen, or the incredibly complicated network of systems that would be effected by trying to reach the target. These are huge problems; entrenchment is incentivized and reinforced on many levels. We often don't solve problems, we treat symptoms, because it's easier than doing what needs to be done to solve the problems.